From netrek at gmail.com  Sun Dec  3 01:41:59 2006
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 02:41:59 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] bots in metaserver count
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0612022341k54bbd434mf93dde5d5d9c11ee@mail.gmail.com>

bronco server godfather.mob.net is including bots in the metaserver player count

zach


From narcis at luky.nl  Sun Dec  3 14:56:43 2006
From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis)
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 21:56:43 +0100
Subject: [netrek-dev] RSA testing
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1165168803.16612.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>
References: <mailman.1.1165168803.16612.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <9F40FB6D-2FC3-4B69-BEA9-79A5D3106327@luky.nl>

Hi,

did anyone add the mactrek key to any RSA enabled server?
I'd love to test it some place.

regards

Chris

MacTrek_Key:ct=MacTrek:cr=Chris:\
    :cd=November 2006:ar=OSX-Tiger:\
    :cm=No-Comment:\
    :gk=359b0e6aee1a586b193b01cc8c7ddac88ba569fc63bc79ffdeced44771b228b3 
:\
    :pk=efb89fa2e04e4105b4727825a8f32dfdff3034dcc25cbcd5929b5d02b879995f 
:


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From ahn at orion.netrek.org  Sun Dec  3 20:05:37 2006
From: ahn at orion.netrek.org (Dave Ahn)
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 21:05:37 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] web folders status needs updating
In-Reply-To: <20061201011343.GB17022@us.netrek.org>
References: <ecfa260c0611300115l5e2cdffcof5d52b235eb544f4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061130205346.GB5097@us.netrek.org>
	<20061130211058.GA2898@orion.netrek.org>
	<20061201011343.GB17022@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20061204020537.GA18889@orion.netrek.org>

On Fri, Dec 01, 2006 at 12:13:43PM +1100, James Cameron wrote:
> 
> The trailing slash is required,

I just fixed this so that http://www.netrek.org/stats will work.

> and when it is provided the interface is the conventional directory listing.

I'm open to something better.  I prefer static HTML headers for security
purposes (this could be auto-generated upon stats arrival), but dynamic
pages after a security code review would be fine, too.

> I'd like to have it more
> accessible, such as via an RSS feed with automatically generated HTML
> kinda like a news site.  I'm working toward this with the RSS feed in
> the server ... but there's an opportunity to do it here too.

Yes, this would be nice.


From narcis at luky.nl  Mon Dec  4 14:42:09 2006
From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis)
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 21:42:09 +0100
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-dev Digest, Vol 22, Issue 3
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1165255202.1286.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>
References: <mailman.1.1165255202.1286.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <03F67A5C-F9ED-419A-9E81-22CEDECC88DE@luky.nl>


Hi,

RSA seems to work i've tested it against GMP 4.2 RSA 2.9.2 and  
Vanilla 2.10.2 on linux.
I've not seen the key authenticated on any other server then my own.  
(btw how do i solicit a server
to a meta server?)

Did notice something funny though: my robots are no longer allowed to  
play. When setting PRE=1 they just
keep logging on and get busted. Is there a way to make them RSA-able?

regards

Chris



> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 21:56:43 +0100
> From: Narcis <narcis at luky.nl>
> Subject: [netrek-dev] RSA testing
> To: netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
> Message-ID: <9F40FB6D-2FC3-4B69-BEA9-79A5D3106327 at luky.nl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hi,
>
> did anyone add the mactrek key to any RSA enabled server?
> I'd love to test it some place.
>
> regards
>
> Chris
>
> MacTrek_Key:ct=MacTrek:cr=Chris:\
>     :cd=November 2006:ar=OSX-Tiger:\
>     :cm=No-Comment:\
>     :gk=359b0e6aee1a586b193b01cc8c7ddac88ba569fc63bc79ffdeced44771b228 
> b3
> :\
>     :pk=efb89fa2e04e4105b4727825a8f32dfdff3034dcc25cbcd5929b5d02b87999 
> 5f
> :



From quozl at us.netrek.org  Mon Dec  4 18:47:26 2006
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 11:47:26 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-dev Digest, Vol 22, Issue 3
In-Reply-To: <03F67A5C-F9ED-419A-9E81-22CEDECC88DE@luky.nl>
References: <mailman.1.1165255202.1286.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>
	<03F67A5C-F9ED-419A-9E81-22CEDECC88DE@luky.nl>
Message-ID: <20061205004726.GD4928@us.netrek.org>

G'day Chris,

Thanks for testing your key ... I'm afraid I didn't get time to stick it
on continuum.us.netrek.org.  I guess it is time for you to submit it to
Carlos for entry into the official list.

When robots die due to RSA, you need to add their origin host to
etc/bypass.  Either 127.0.0.1 or localhost, depending on where they
appear to be from.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From jjadeinc at hotmail.com  Mon Dec  4 19:44:09 2006
From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango)
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 17:44:09 -0800
Subject: [netrek-dev] Strange activity on metaserver.us.netrek.org
References: <mailman.1.1165255202.1286.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org><03F67A5C-F9ED-419A-9E81-22CEDECC88DE@luky.nl>
	<20061205004726.GD4928@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <BAY128-DAV7CA94982585414F84D5E9CBDE0@phx.gbl>

Only 9 on continuum and I am seeing a new pulsar server, 
netrek2.pulsar-zone.net, and the godfather server being listed as preferred 
servers on metaserver.us.netrek.org.  Did something change?  The old pulsar 
server is still active but not being listed as a preferred server.

-Joe 



From netrek at gmail.com  Mon Dec  4 22:51:04 2006
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 23:51:04 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Strange activity on metaserver.us.netrek.org
In-Reply-To: <BAY128-DAV7CA94982585414F84D5E9CBDE0@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.1.1165255202.1286.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>
	<03F67A5C-F9ED-419A-9E81-22CEDECC88DE@luky.nl>
	<20061205004726.GD4928@us.netrek.org>
	<BAY128-DAV7CA94982585414F84D5E9CBDE0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0612042051j2667608am1677e011e37e6872@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/4/06, Joe Evango <jjadeinc at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Only 9 on continuum and I am seeing a new pulsar server,
> netrek2.pulsar-zone.net, and the godfather server being listed as preferred
> servers on metaserver.us.netrek.org.  Did something change?  The old pulsar
> server is still active but not being listed as a preferred server.

Sigh once again netrek.pulsar-zone.net is reporting the bots in the
player count on the metaserver. I just checked it is reporting 11 now
and there are 5 humans and 6 bots!
And now netrek2.pulsar-zone.net is also incorrectly reporting bots as
humans. Please can something be done about this. Matthew Mondor said
he'd fix this so it wouldn't happen again, yet here it has.

Zach


From netrek at gmail.com  Tue Dec  5 06:55:49 2006
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 07:55:49 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] pulsar-zone servers giving false metaserver count!
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0612050455w6991edb7vf4550be95e1d8add@mail.gmail.com>

Once again this is a problem. Right now netrek.pulsar-zone.net and
netrek2.pulsar-zone.net are each reporting 9 players to the
metaserver. I logged on each server and there are only bots.

BTW why are there now 2 pulsar-zone servers?

Can action be taken to stop this fraudulent reporting please.

Zach


From jjadeinc at hotmail.com  Tue Dec  5 09:09:26 2006
From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango)
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 09:09:26 -0600
Subject: [netrek-dev] Strange activity on metaserver.us.netrek.org
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0612042051j2667608am1677e011e37e6872@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY128-F45E657C6871F2D42BE42DCBDE0@phx.gbl>

I am curious as to how the new pulsar server and the godfather server were 
able to work around the new metaserver restriction.  Doesn't look like the 
godfather server is even up.

Even stranger, the pulsar servers only seem to be reporting false player 
counts through metaserver2.  If you use metaserver.us.netrek.org they report 
the correct counts.


-Joe


>
>Sigh once again netrek.pulsar-zone.net is reporting the bots in the
>player count on the metaserver. I just checked it is reporting 11 now
>and there are 5 humans and 6 bots!
>And now netrek2.pulsar-zone.net is also incorrectly reporting bots as
>humans. Please can something be done about this. Matthew Mondor said
>he'd fix this so it wouldn't happen again, yet here it has.
>
>Zach
>
>_______________________________________________
>netrek-dev mailing list
>netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
>http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev

_________________________________________________________________
Talk now to your Hotmail contacts with Windows Live Messenger. 
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://get.live.com/messenger/overview



From quozl at us.netrek.org  Tue Dec  5 22:27:34 2006
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 15:27:34 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] Strange activity on metaserver.us.netrek.org
In-Reply-To: <BAY128-F45E657C6871F2D42BE42DCBDE0@phx.gbl>
References: <ecfa260c0612042051j2667608am1677e011e37e6872@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY128-F45E657C6871F2D42BE42DCBDE0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20061206042734.GB8147@us.netrek.org>

Carlos, metaserver2.us.netrek.org is probably contacting the servers
back and counting players using a different algorithm to that which the
UDP solicitation uses.  A fix for this is in my darcs repo for the
metaserver, file scan.c if I recall correctly.

http://james.tooraweenah.com/darcs/netrek-metaserver/

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From mm_lists at pulsar-zone.net  Wed Dec  6 07:53:05 2006
From: mm_lists at pulsar-zone.net (Matthew Mondor)
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 08:53:05 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Strange activity on metaserver.us.netrek.org
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0612042051j2667608am1677e011e37e6872@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1165255202.1286.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>
	<03F67A5C-F9ED-419A-9E81-22CEDECC88DE@luky.nl>
	<20061205004726.GD4928@us.netrek.org>
	<BAY128-DAV7CA94982585414F84D5E9CBDE0@phx.gbl>
	<ecfa260c0612042051j2667608am1677e011e37e6872@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20061206085305.41d0f015@sat.xisop>

On Mon, 4 Dec 2006 23:51:04 -0500
Zach <netrek at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 12/4/06, Joe Evango <jjadeinc at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Only 9 on continuum and I am seeing a new pulsar server,
> > netrek2.pulsar-zone.net, and the godfather server being listed as preferred
> > servers on metaserver.us.netrek.org.  Did something change?  The old pulsar
> > server is still active but not being listed as a preferred server.
> 
> Sigh once again netrek.pulsar-zone.net is reporting the bots in the
> player count on the metaserver. I just checked it is reporting 11 now
> and there are 5 humans and 6 bots!
> And now netrek2.pulsar-zone.net is also incorrectly reporting bots as
> humans. Please can something be done about this. Matthew Mondor said
> he'd fix this so it wouldn't happen again, yet here it has.

The problem is/was in the metaservers code all along;  before a recent
fix from James, the metaservers used to connect via TCP to the servers
whenever no UDP packet from it was received for a little while, and it
counted robots as players.  Now UDP-reporting capable servers should no
longer get connected to by the main metaserver.

As for netrek2.pulsar-zone.net, a new server was setup on another static
address+box so that UDP can now work.  It was initially called
netrek2.pulsar-zone.net and had corresponding DNS entry, and would have
remained as-is for as long as it takes for people to report that UDP now
functions properly (and the other server remained up).

I also was surprised that the metaserver showed it in the list despite
the restrictions and although I haven't read the metaserver code since a
few years, I can only assume that the restrictions are made on a
per-case basis (rather than for instance a global deny all rule followed
by exceptions).  This would imply that any new server would get listed
(and so was my new server).

***

It wasn't too long until confirmation that UDP was working was received.
I then deleted the netrek2.pulsar-zone.net record, shut down the old
server and renamed the new server solicit name back to
netrek.pulsar-zone.net (as well as fixed its DNS entry to point to the
new address).  This caused various problems on the metaservers:

1) second metaserver started connecting again via TCP to the new server
and reporting robots as players.

2) since netrek2.pulsar-zone.net was no longer existing, but previously
was, the metaservers entry for it remained for a while.  I didn't check
the code yet, but it appears that because of this dangling entry the
metaserver was also querying the new (cached) address for player list.
(and of course also counting robots as players).

3) Of course DNS propagation had to occur (despite the rather short
expiration time I set for my domain names).  After the move I thought I
should have kept the netrek2.pulsar-zone.net name all along after the
switch, and have CNAMEd the old name to the new one.  This however would
not have prevented the new server from being listed at all times without
fixes to the metaserver.

4) On the first metaserver, netrek2.pulsar-zone.net still persists since
the metaserver no longer attempts to connect to it (having flagged it as
one that updates through UDP), so it didn't change its state (i.e. 2
players 30+ hours ago).  I'm uncertain if the entry will need to be
removed manually or if it'll eventually expire out.

I am sorry for the temporary inconvenience the server switch caused, but
the changes are over.  Hopefully players get slightly lower latency now
that UDP works on the new server.

Some could argue that I should have re-read the new metaserver code to
find out its cons before doing this;  However I would rather have shut
the server down if it was that much trouble.  I in fact had decided to
shut it down when the new rules were applied to the first metaserver,
however due to multiple user requests I decided to bring it back up. 
It's a service, and if it gets too much trouble I won't have the time to
cope with it.

***

If I did have the time (and approbation), what I would personally do is
rewrite the metaserver code and protocol and adapt vanilla and clients
to use it.  Of course, this also assumes that everyone want to take the
trouble to upgrade :)

- Flags/fields would be added as necessary so that bots be marked as
such.  The server comment field would also be honored.  Additional
server states and flags could also be implemented.  The protocol would
be versionned for future updates and backwards compatibility.

- UDP updates would be replaced by server to metaserver update requests
using TCP only (potentially with DSA or HMAC-SHA-80 for authentication
and perhaps optionally AES-128 for content blocks + embedded checksums),
and metaservers would no longer connect to any server.  This would be
allowed to export in most countries today in open-source software with
the proper disclaimer.

- A server for which no updates are received within a configurable time
frame would immediately be de-listed until the next update, so would
servers exceeding the specified update rate, for a specified time
penalty.

- Origin IP address of update requests could also be more relied upon
than it currently is with UDP updates (for which all kinds of exploits
are possible).  Currently one could easily spoof the origin address of
update packets and ruin the reputation of any server (I'm surprised this
never yet occurred, and am ashamed if I teach the obvious to potential
evil readers by mentioning it).

- It would be possible for new server admins to be granted the right to
list a server and be assigned a key to do so.  This would be
configurable so that a metaserver could instead decide to be totally
open as they traditionally were (actually, with RSA or DSA the server
admin would most probably provide its public key part to the metaserver
admin along with the request).

As this morning I decided to take the time to reply, I thought I might
as well add a bunch of ideas for others to potentially be inspired from :)

***

To also voice my opinion about what happened lately to the community
relating to the warped server and the recent main metaserver
restrictions:

I personally think that the high population on warped was mainly because
Bill is the most active client and server developer (if not the only one
nowadays).  The restrictions put on the main metaserver can however be
considered legitimate if it really helps bronco to survive, and if what
people want is still bronco, IMO.  It's James' metaserver afterall, and
anyone could start his own and release clients using it as main
metaserver.  It's actually a solution I recommended to Bill if he wants
sturgeon to continue to evolve.  His reply was that he wouldn't want to
segregate the netrek community like this, which is a very reasonable
point of view as well.

As for my server, if the metaserver comment field really worked, then I
think that my server could probably remain listed at all times and be
marked "practice borg server", as it's all it really is.  The twinky
Sundays (with super GA and SB ships) appear to be appreciated by a
number of people, but are still only bronco settings that did not
require code changes, and it's only one day per week, still with the
permanent robots enabled.

The server's motd redirects players to continuum for actual human
tournaments (although I'm unconvinced that players actually read motds,
especially that there was a note put there which would have answered to
most of zach's questions :)

Before the reborn of sturgeon, players were rare on
netrek.pulsar-zone.net although there were some at off-peak hours (when
there weren't enough people to play on continuum).  Even on sundays I
highly doubt that it was generally "stealing" bronco users.  And this
situation lasted a while with regular tournaments on continuum.  The
visit frequency however increased substantially after continuum was dead
for a while, a possible justification for a temporary restriction, but
which probably should be lifted once regular human tournaments resume on
continuum (James willing).

The fact that very few users know about using -h or changing their
metaserver settings made the server useless for a while (although there
now are a few visitors per day).  If a client upgrade allows to easily
have access to multiple metaservers, wouldn't it make the restrictions
system totally useless however?  Also, since my server's traffic was
mainly off-peak, I'm unsure about the efficiency of the current
restriction rule placed on it, since it now only gets listed when
continuum is full (when there is the least chances of someone wanting to
play against robots :).

Thanks and farewell,
--
Matt


From mm_lists at pulsar-zone.net  Wed Dec  6 08:13:32 2006
From: mm_lists at pulsar-zone.net (Matthew Mondor)
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 09:13:32 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Strange activity on metaserver.us.netrek.org
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0612042051j2667608am1677e011e37e6872@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1165255202.1286.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>
	<03F67A5C-F9ED-419A-9E81-22CEDECC88DE@luky.nl>
	<20061205004726.GD4928@us.netrek.org>
	<BAY128-DAV7CA94982585414F84D5E9CBDE0@phx.gbl>
	<ecfa260c0612042051j2667608am1677e011e37e6872@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20061206091332.5a4e52b8@sat.xisop>

On Mon, 4 Dec 2006 23:51:04 -0500
Zach <netrek at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 12/4/06, Joe Evango <jjadeinc at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Only 9 on continuum and I am seeing a new pulsar server,
> > netrek2.pulsar-zone.net, and the godfather server being listed as preferred
> > servers on metaserver.us.netrek.org.  Did something change?  The old pulsar
> > server is still active but not being listed as a preferred server.
> 
> Sigh once again netrek.pulsar-zone.net is reporting the bots in the
> player count on the metaserver. I just checked it is reporting 11 now
> and there are 5 humans and 6 bots!
> And now netrek2.pulsar-zone.net is also incorrectly reporting bots as
> humans. Please can something be done about this. Matthew Mondor said
> he'd fix this so it wouldn't happen again, yet here it has.

The problem is/was in the metaservers code all along;  before a recent
fix from James, the metaservers used to connect via TCP to the servers
whenever no UDP packet from it was received for a little while, and it
counted robots as players.  Now UDP-reporting capable servers should no
longer get connected to by the main metaserver.

As for netrek2.pulsar-zone.net, a new server was setup on another static
address+box so that UDP can now work.  It was initially called
netrek2.pulsar-zone.net and had corresponding DNS entry, and would have
remained as-is for as long as it takes for people to report that UDP now
functions properly (and the other server remained up).

I also was surprised that the metaserver showed it in the list despite
the restrictions and although I haven't read the metaserver code since a
few years, I can only assume that the restrictions are made on a
per-case basis (rather than for instance a global deny all rule followed
by exceptions).  This would imply that any new server would get listed
(and so was my new server).

***

It wasn't too long until confirmation that UDP was working was received.
I then deleted the netrek2.pulsar-zone.net record, shut down the old
server and renamed the new server solicit name back to
netrek.pulsar-zone.net (as well as fixed its DNS entry to point to the
new address).  This caused various problems on the metaservers:

1) second metaserver started connecting again via TCP to the new server
and reporting robots as players.

2) since netrek2.pulsar-zone.net was no longer existing, but previously
was, the metaservers entry for it remained for a while.  I didn't check
the code yet, but it appears that because of this dangling entry the
metaserver was also querying the new (cached) address for player list.
(and of course also counting robots as players).

3) Of course DNS propagation had to occur (despite the rather short
expiration time I set for my domain names).  After the move I thought I
should have kept the netrek2.pulsar-zone.net name all along after the
switch, and have CNAMEd the old name to the new one.  This however would
not have prevented the new server from being listed at all times without
fixes to the metaserver.

4) On the first metaserver, netrek2.pulsar-zone.net still persists since
the metaserver no longer attempts to connect to it (having flagged it as
one that updates through UDP), so it didn't change its state (i.e. 2
players 30+ hours ago).  I'm uncertain if the entry will need to be
removed manually or if it'll eventually expire out.

I am sorry for the temporary inconvenience the server switch caused, but
the changes are over.  Hopefully players get slightly lower latency now
that UDP works on the new server.

Some could argue that I should have re-read the new metaserver code to
find out its cons before doing this;  However I would rather have shut
the server down if it was that much trouble.  I in fact had decided to
shut it down when the new rules were applied to the first metaserver,
however due to multiple user requests I decided to bring it back up. 
It's a service, and if it gets too much trouble I won't have the time to
cope with it.

***

If I did have the time (and approbation), what I would personally do is
rewrite the metaserver code and protocol and adapt vanilla and clients
to use it.  Of course, this also assumes that everyone want to take the
trouble to upgrade :)

- Flags/fields would be added as necessary so that bots be marked as
such.  The server comment field would also be honored.  Additional
server states and flags could also be implemented.  The protocol would
be versionned for future updates and backwards compatibility.

- UDP updates would be replaced by server to metaserver update requests
using TCP only (potentially with DSA or HMAC-SHA-80 for authentication
and perhaps optionally AES-128 for content blocks + embedded checksums),
and metaservers would no longer connect to any server.  This would be
allowed to export in most countries today in open-source software with
the proper disclaimer.

- A server for which no updates are received within a configurable time
frame would immediately be de-listed until the next update, so would
servers exceeding the specified update rate, for a specified time
penalty.

- Origin IP address of update requests could also be more relied upon
than it currently is with UDP updates (for which all kinds of exploits
are possible).  Currently one could easily spoof the origin address of
update packets and ruin the reputation of any server (I'm surprised this
never yet occurred, and am ashamed if I teach the obvious to potential
evil readers by mentioning it).

- It would be possible for new server admins to be granted the right to
list a server and be assigned a key to do so.  This would be
configurable so that a metaserver could instead decide to be totally
open as they traditionally were (actually, with RSA or DSA the server
admin would most probably provide its public key part to the metaserver
admin along with the request).

As this morning I decided to take the time to reply, I thought I might
as well add a bunch of ideas for others to potentially be inspired from :)

***

To also voice my opinion about what happened lately to the community
relating to the warped server and the recent main metaserver
restrictions:

I personally think that the high population on warped was mainly because
Bill is the most active client and server developer (if not the only one
nowadays).  The restrictions put on the main metaserver can however be
considered legitimate if it really helps bronco to survive, and if what
people want is still bronco, IMO.  It's James' metaserver afterall, and
anyone could start his own and release clients using it as main
metaserver.  It's actually a solution I recommended to Bill if he wants
sturgeon to continue to evolve.  His reply was that he wouldn't want to
segregate the netrek community like this, which is a very reasonable
point of view as well.

As for my server, if the metaserver comment field really worked, then I
think that my server could probably remain listed at all times and be
marked "practice borg server", as it's all it really is.  The twinky
Sundays (with super GA and SB ships) appear to be appreciated by a
number of people, but are still only bronco settings that did not
require code changes, and it's only one day per week, still with the
permanent robots enabled.

The server's motd redirects players to continuum for actual human
tournaments (although I'm unconvinced that players actually read motds,
especially that there was a note put there which would have answered to
most of zach's questions :)

Before the reborn of sturgeon, players were rare on
netrek.pulsar-zone.net although there were some at off-peak hours (when
there weren't enough people to play on continuum).  Even on sundays I
highly doubt that it was generally "stealing" bronco users.  And this
situation lasted a while with regular tournaments on continuum.  The
visit frequency however increased substantially after continuum was dead
for a while, a possible justification for a temporary restriction, but
which probably should be lifted once regular human tournaments resume on
continuum (James willing).

The fact that very few users know about using -h or changing their
metaserver settings made the server useless for a while (although there
now are a few visitors per day).  If a client upgrade allows to easily
have access to multiple metaservers, wouldn't it make the restrictions
system totally useless however?  Also, since my server's traffic was
mainly off-peak, I'm unsure about the efficiency of the current
restriction rule placed on it, since it now only gets listed when
continuum is full (when there is the least chances of someone wanting to
play against robots :).

Thanks and farewell,
--
Matt


From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to  Wed Dec  6 09:54:55 2006
From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen)
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 10:54:55 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Strange activity on metaserver.us.netrek.org
In-Reply-To: <20061206085305.41d0f015@sat.xisop> (Matthew Mondor's message
	of "Wed, 6 Dec 2006 08:53:05 -0500")
References: <mailman.1.1165255202.1286.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>
	<03F67A5C-F9ED-419A-9E81-22CEDECC88DE@luky.nl>
	<20061205004726.GD4928@us.netrek.org>
	<BAY128-DAV7CA94982585414F84D5E9CBDE0@phx.gbl>
	<ecfa260c0612042051j2667608am1677e011e37e6872@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061206085305.41d0f015@sat.xisop>
Message-ID: <0q4ps9ow8g.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>



Matthew Mondor <mm_lists at pulsar-zone.net> writes:
> I am sorry for the temporary inconvenience the server switch caused, but
> the changes are over.  Hopefully players get slightly lower latency now
> that UDP works on the new server.
>
> Some could argue that I should have re-read the new metaserver code to
> find out its cons before doing this;  However I would rather have shut
> the server down if it was that much trouble.  I in fact had decided to
> shut it down when the new rules were applied to the first metaserver,
> however due to multiple user requests I decided to bring it back up. 
> It's a service, and if it gets too much trouble I won't have the time to
> cope with it.

one shouldn't have to read the code to run a server.
I for one am very thankful that we're getting a playable bronco bot
server. Thank You. 

> The twinky Sundays (with super GA and SB ships) appear to be appreciated 

Yeah. I don't usually remember to play, but I'm glad twink sundays are there.

One other question: if your server is a bot server, would it make sense
to have it also be a base-practice server? IE, could you drop the minimum
rank for a base to Ensign, and cut down the base recycle time? 


More General Stuff:

> As for my server, if the metaserver comment field really worked, then I
> think that my server could probably remain listed at all times and be
> marked "practice borg server", as it's all it really is.  

How hard would this be to make work? Is it a client issue, 
metaserver, or both? The metaserver rewrite stuff sounds great
in principle, but this one change sounds like it would have
a notable benefit. 

> now are a few visitors per day).  If a client upgrade allows to easily
> have access to multiple metaservers, wouldn't it make the restrictions
> system totally useless however?  

I think i asked this question here, too, but I don't think I saw
an answer... anyone? And how close are the clients to doing this? 

>... Also, since my server's traffic was
> mainly off-peak, I'm unsure about the efficiency of the current
> restriction rule placed on it, since it now only gets listed when
> continuum is full (when there is the least chances of someone wanting to
> play against robots :).

Yeah, the bot server should be listed at all times. 

Do we know who runs www.allbinary.com and godfather.mob.net? 
They're both in the metaserver, but I can't connect to either...

  --akb



From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to  Wed Dec  6 10:06:34 2006
From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen)
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 11:06:34 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Other stuff...
In-Reply-To: <20061117062225.GA18956@us.netrek.org> (James Cameron's message
	of "Fri, 17 Nov 2006 17:22:25 +1100")
References: <mailman.1.1162490402.30775.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>
	<DF02F42C-1829-479D-B1BF-7FC29A1339A7@luky.nl>
	<20061112030424.GA9715@us.netrek.org>
	<ecfa260c0611122205r2065a959t8aba7441b1339b13@mail.gmail.com>
	<0qirhj4ltd.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<Pine.GSO.4.58.0611130502350.17544@blinky>
	<ecfa260c0611130924h2ac1854ke64159cf81c19688@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061113231559.GA9316@us.netrek.org>
	<0qslgj2brq.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061117000122.GU2417@legolas.gerdesas.com>
	<20061117062225.GA18956@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <0q1wndovp1.fsf_-_@lanconius.mirror.to>


Continuum safe idle is working; 
perhaps it should get mentioned in the motd?

With the rebirth of pulsar-zone, I expect we don't need pre-T bots on
Continuum. Is that your view as well?



From jjadeinc at hotmail.com  Wed Dec  6 12:51:05 2006
From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango)
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 12:51:05 -0600
Subject: [netrek-dev] Strange activity on metaserver.us.netrek.org
In-Reply-To: <0q4ps9ow8g.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
Message-ID: <BAY128-F34385C728FD79EBC37BC89CBDD0@phx.gbl>

>Matthew Mondor <mm_lists at pulsar-zone.net> writes:
> > I am sorry for the temporary inconvenience the server switch caused, but
> > the changes are over.  Hopefully players get slightly lower latency now
> > that UDP works on the new server.
> >
> > Some could argue that I should have re-read the new metaserver code to
> > find out its cons before doing this;  However I would rather have shut
> > the server down if it was that much trouble.  I in fact had decided to
> > shut it down when the new rules were applied to the first metaserver,
> > however due to multiple user requests I decided to bring it back up.
> > It's a service, and if it gets too much trouble I won't have the time to
> > cope with it.

That explains it thanks.  I was told last night that an email was sent out 
prior to the meta server restriction being put in place that explains why 
the new pulsar and godfather server would be listed.  I guess I missed that 
email.  Thought there might have been a hole in the metaserver that had not 
been identified.

Good to see UDP is working on pulsar.


-Joe

_________________________________________________________________
Get free, personalized commercial-free online radio with MSN Radio powered 
by Pandora http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001



From quozl at us.netrek.org  Wed Dec  6 21:55:15 2006
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 14:55:15 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] Other stuff...
In-Reply-To: <0q1wndovp1.fsf_-_@lanconius.mirror.to>
References: <20061112030424.GA9715@us.netrek.org>
	<ecfa260c0611122205r2065a959t8aba7441b1339b13@mail.gmail.com>
	<0qirhj4ltd.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<Pine.GSO.4.58.0611130502350.17544@blinky>
	<ecfa260c0611130924h2ac1854ke64159cf81c19688@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061113231559.GA9316@us.netrek.org>
	<0qslgj2brq.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061117000122.GU2417@legolas.gerdesas.com>
	<20061117062225.GA18956@us.netrek.org>
	<0q1wndovp1.fsf_-_@lanconius.mirror.to>
Message-ID: <20061207035515.GA6172@us.netrek.org>

On Wed, Dec 06, 2006 at 11:06:34AM -0500, Andrew K. Bressen wrote:
> Continuum safe idle is working; 
> perhaps it should get mentioned in the motd?

Good idea, thanks for spotting that.  Change mentioned:

2006-12-07

Safe idle mode is on.  Use it to wait for t-mode.  Be cloaked, orbit
your home planet, no kills, max fuel, max shield, no damage, and you
will be safe from damage until t-mode begins.

> With the rebirth of pulsar-zone, I expect we don't need pre-T bots on
> Continuum. Is that your view as well?

I'd like to enable pre-t robots on continuum, but every time I tried I
had problems.  The more recent changes may fix this.  I should give it
another try.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From netrek at gmail.com  Wed Dec  6 23:17:08 2006
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 00:17:08 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Other stuff...
In-Reply-To: <20061207035515.GA6172@us.netrek.org>
References: <20061112030424.GA9715@us.netrek.org>
	<0qirhj4ltd.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<Pine.GSO.4.58.0611130502350.17544@blinky>
	<ecfa260c0611130924h2ac1854ke64159cf81c19688@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061113231559.GA9316@us.netrek.org>
	<0qslgj2brq.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061117000122.GU2417@legolas.gerdesas.com>
	<20061117062225.GA18956@us.netrek.org>
	<0q1wndovp1.fsf_-_@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061207035515.GA6172@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0612062117w5725a639j1447b27599a6ff9@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/6/06, James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote:
> 2006-12-07
>
> Safe idle mode is on.  Use it to wait for t-mode.  Be cloaked, orbit
> your home planet, no kills, max fuel, max shield, no damage, and you
> will be safe from damage until t-mode begins.

Does it matter if your shields or up or down?

Zach


From jjadeinc at hotmail.com  Fri Dec  8 11:10:29 2006
From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango)
Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 11:10:29 -0600
Subject: [netrek-dev] Clue Game Quick Connect Application
In-Reply-To: <20061207035515.GA6172@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <BAY128-F9C8AC48BA1D9CABC46B84CBD30@phx.gbl>

I created a Clue Game Quick Connect application.  This application is only 
for the Windows clients and is installed in your Netrek install directory.  
When executed it opens a small window with a text field, four radio buttons 
and a join button.

A screenshot of this application is available at 
http://www.playnetrek.org/cluegame.jpg

The user only needs to enter a server name and select a radio button for 
home, away or an observer port then press the join button.  It will record 
and save the last server entered so if you are visiting the same clue server 
or just switching teams you do not need to enter the server name again, just 
select a radio button and click join.

The installer walks you through the installation.  A shortcut for this 
application is created in your Netrek program group in a subfolder called 
Clue Games.

I have two reasons for creating this.  First, the past couple weeks I have 
seen skillful new players that have an interest in clue games trying to walk 
through typing in server names and switch numbers to join a game.  Since 
Netrek now consists of convenient shortcuts, the task of teaching newer 
players how to join clue games seems a little tougher then it was 5 years 
ago.  This past Wednesday it took 10+ minutes to walk someone through 
getting into the weekly clue game.  Would have been nice to say ?download 
and install this program, type in this server name, pick your team and click 
join?.

The second reason for creating this is for guys like me who don't want to 
create shortcuts for multiple clue servers with multiple ports.  Not that 
this is really a problem right now, but I am hoping it could become one in 
the near future.  This way I have one icon that can be used to join any clue 
servers.  It is convenient, easy to use and saves time.

Had an issue connecting to the away observer port on warped since it is on 
port 5001.  I had an idea this morning that will fix this but is not yet 
implemented.  Since the port numbers are hard coded to the radio buttons, I 
will create a condition so that if the server name is netrek.warped.us, the 
port number variable for the away observer port will be assigned 5001, 
otherwise it will be 5000.  I will change this and test it later today.

The beta version is located at http://www.playnetrek.org/cluegame.exe

I plan on having all the bugs worked out and having it listed on 
playnetrek.org by Sunday as a stand alone download.

I also plan on relisting XP Mod this weekend as a secondary Windows client 
and having this application included with the installer.  I finally got the 
config files cleaned up.  I still need to make a few changes to the 
configuration utility and tutorial before relisting it.  Total file size for 
the XP Mod installer which will include the tutorial, config utility and 
clue game quick join application is going to be about 2MB.  I was thinking 
about listing it as ?Netrek Classic? but wasn't sure if this would strike a 
nerve in the development community.  I have reasons for this, from a 
promotional standpoint, but don't want to get into the details of this 
unless people feel the need as this email already seems long enough.

-Joe

_________________________________________________________________
WIN up to $10,000 in cash or prizes ? enter the Microsoft Office Live 
Sweepstakes http://clk..atdmt.com/MRT/go/aub0050001581mrt/direct/01/



From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to  Fri Dec  8 12:57:12 2006
From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen)
Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 13:57:12 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek web pages
In-Reply-To: <20061207041225.GB6172@us.netrek.org> (James Cameron's message
	of "Thu, 7 Dec 2006 15:12:25 +1100")
References: <0qveksow82.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061205004408.GB4928@us.netrek.org>
	<0q3b7tovsp.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061207041225.GB6172@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <0q4ps6nrlj.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>


I've been writing to James a bit about updating the web pages.
He asked we move the discussion to the list, which makes sense,
so here...

James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> writes:
> Let me know if you think the genocide content should be in a darcs repo.

Yes, absolutely. What are the scripts written in? What do I need
to install to replicate site functionality? (I have a home linux box
with apache and php already... do I need a cms?). 

To catch the rest of you up, we need some webpage work done.  The
genocide.netrek.org site (former www.netrek.org) looks to my mind
fantastic, and it'd be a huge amount of work to come up with something
else as good. If we're going to work on the webpages, I think the
effort is better placed towards updating and extending the
approximately 250 pages of existing content. So I'm trying to make
that happen.

    --akb



From williamb at its.caltech.edu  Fri Dec  8 16:34:46 2006
From: williamb at its.caltech.edu (William Balcerski)
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 14:34:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [netrek-dev] Clue Game Quick Connect Application
In-Reply-To: <BAY128-F9C8AC48BA1D9CABC46B84CBD30@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY128-F9C8AC48BA1D9CABC46B84CBD30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0612081429160.19976@blinky>

I like it, include it as part of the netrek client install package as
well.  I too ran into difficulty trying to teach some people how to
connect to an INL server.  I was going to mention this at a later time but
now is as good as ever, I would also like two shortcut links automatically
as part of the installation package, one being "Cambot Record" and one
being "Cambot Playback", with the default playback file being cambot.pkt.
Another option would be to have the installer change windows settings to
associate all .pkt files with the netrek executable , and then somehow having
the netrek.exe sense when you are launching a cambot file and go into cambot
mode automatically but I don't know how to do either of those things yet.
Bill

On Fri, 8 Dec 2006, Joe Evango wrote:

> I created a Clue Game Quick Connect application.  This application is only
> for the Windows clients and is installed in your Netrek install directory.
> When executed it opens a small window with a text field, four radio buttons
> and a join button.
>
> A screenshot of this application is available at
> http://www.playnetrek.org/cluegame.jpg
>
> The user only needs to enter a server name and select a radio button for
> home, away or an observer port then press the join button.  It will record
> and save the last server entered so if you are visiting the same clue server
> or just switching teams you do not need to enter the server name again, just
> select a radio button and click join.
>
> The installer walks you through the installation.  A shortcut for this
> application is created in your Netrek program group in a subfolder called
> Clue Games.
>
> I have two reasons for creating this.  First, the past couple weeks I have
> seen skillful new players that have an interest in clue games trying to walk
> through typing in server names and switch numbers to join a game.  Since
> Netrek now consists of convenient shortcuts, the task of teaching newer
> players how to join clue games seems a little tougher then it was 5 years
> ago.  This past Wednesday it took 10+ minutes to walk someone through
> getting into the weekly clue game.  Would have been nice to say ?download
> and install this program, type in this server name, pick your team and click
> join?.
>
> The second reason for creating this is for guys like me who don't want to
> create shortcuts for multiple clue servers with multiple ports.  Not that
> this is really a problem right now, but I am hoping it could become one in
> the near future.  This way I have one icon that can be used to join any clue
> servers.  It is convenient, easy to use and saves time.
>
> Had an issue connecting to the away observer port on warped since it is on
> port 5001.  I had an idea this morning that will fix this but is not yet
> implemented.  Since the port numbers are hard coded to the radio buttons, I
> will create a condition so that if the server name is netrek.warped.us, the
> port number variable for the away observer port will be assigned 5001,
> otherwise it will be 5000.  I will change this and test it later today.
>
> The beta version is located at http://www.playnetrek.org/cluegame.exe
>
> I plan on having all the bugs worked out and having it listed on
> playnetrek.org by Sunday as a stand alone download.
>
> I also plan on relisting XP Mod this weekend as a secondary Windows client
> and having this application included with the installer.  I finally got the
> config files cleaned up.  I still need to make a few changes to the
> configuration utility and tutorial before relisting it.  Total file size for
> the XP Mod installer which will include the tutorial, config utility and
> clue game quick join application is going to be about 2MB.  I was thinking
> about listing it as ?Netrek Classic? but wasn't sure if this would strike a
> nerve in the development community.  I have reasons for this, from a
> promotional standpoint, but don't want to get into the details of this
> unless people feel the need as this email already seems long enough.
>
> -Joe
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> WIN up to $10,000 in cash or prizes ? enter the Microsoft Office Live
> Sweepstakes http://clk..atdmt.com/MRT/go/aub0050001581mrt/direct/01/
>
>
>


From ahn at orion.netrek.org  Fri Dec  8 17:03:28 2006
From: ahn at orion.netrek.org (Dave Ahn)
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 18:03:28 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek web pages
In-Reply-To: <0q4ps6nrlj.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
References: <0qveksow82.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061205004408.GB4928@us.netrek.org>
	<0q3b7tovsp.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061207041225.GB6172@us.netrek.org>
	<0q4ps6nrlj.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
Message-ID: <20061208230328.GA4068@orion.netrek.org>

On Fri, Dec 08, 2006 at 01:57:12PM -0500, Andrew K. Bressen wrote:
> 
> James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> writes:
> > Let me know if you think the genocide content should be in a darcs repo.
> 
> Yes, absolutely.

I disagree on this one.  I'd rather see the Netrek Home Page content in
a semi-access-controlled Wiki than in what is essentially a source code
repository.  The major problem with the Netrek Home Page in the past has
been individual control and limited access where one or the few
maintainer(s) become a bottleneck to maintaining active content.  I
count myself as one of these individuals.

> What are the scripts written in? What do I need
> to install to replicate site functionality? (I have a home linux box
> with apache and php already... do I need a cms?).

Genocide's netrek pages are written in PHP.  I would prefer to move away
from this because it requires one (or a group) of trusted maintainers
with unrestricted access to one of the main netrek infrastructure
servers.  Finding a balance between open host access and open editorial
access can be difficult, and a Wiki is a great candidate.

> To catch the rest of you up, we need some webpage work done.  The
> genocide.netrek.org site (former www.netrek.org) looks to my mind
> fantastic, and it'd be a huge amount of work to come up with something
> else as good. If we're going to work on the webpages, I think the
> effort is better placed towards updating and extending the
> approximately 250 pages of existing content. So I'm trying to make
> that happen.

There are three reasons why the Netrek home pages (various incarnations)
are in such a bad state:

1) The previous maintainer is gone, and nobody qualified has stepped up
   to help assist in taking a leading role in maintaining the web pages.
   Several people have volunteered for certain parts of the Netrek home
   page, however, and they are waiting for set up and a lead.
2) Some existing owners/maintainers of other, more active netrek web pages
   prefer to keep their content separate from www.netrek.org rather than
   as an integral part of it.  There is nothing wrong with this, as that
   is the nature of the WWW.
3) I have not had the time to move the genocide content over to
   www.netrek.org's Wiki.

If you or anyone else would be interested in a combined effort to
(re)build the Netrek home page, I'd be happy to discuss this and can
offer the appropriate access.

Dave


From mm_lists at pulsar-zone.net  Sat Dec  9 05:31:11 2006
From: mm_lists at pulsar-zone.net (Matthew Mondor)
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 06:31:11 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Strange activity on metaserver.us.netrek.org
In-Reply-To: <0q4ps9ow8g.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
References: <mailman.1.1165255202.1286.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>
	<03F67A5C-F9ED-419A-9E81-22CEDECC88DE@luky.nl>
	<20061205004726.GD4928@us.netrek.org>
	<BAY128-DAV7CA94982585414F84D5E9CBDE0@phx.gbl>
	<ecfa260c0612042051j2667608am1677e011e37e6872@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061206085305.41d0f015@sat.xisop>
	<0q4ps9ow8g.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
Message-ID: <20061209063111.081bcace@sat.xisop>

On Wed, 06 Dec 2006 10:54:55 -0500
akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) wrote:

> One other question: if your server is a bot server, would it make sense
> to have it also be a base-practice server? IE, could you drop the minimum
> rank for a base to Ensign, and cut down the base recycle time? 

I just set SBRANK=2 (lt. commander, default was 3 == Commander), and
SBPLANETS=3 (default 5, which was the number of planets required to take
out an SB).

As for the recycle time I didn't see a keyword for it in the
configuration file, and would have to check the code to find out if
there's one.  There's also BASEPRACTICE which is currently disabled (0)
but I also would have to look at the code to know what it actually
does...  From a quick grep I suspect that hardcoded BUILD_SB_TIME in
defs.h might be the SB recycle time (and teams[me->p_team].s_turns) but
I didn't look more into it yet.

> > As for my server, if the metaserver comment field really worked, then I
> > think that my server could probably remain listed at all times and be
> > marked "practice borg server", as it's all it really is.  
> 
> How hard would this be to make work? Is it a client issue, 
> metaserver, or both? The metaserver rewrite stuff sounds great
> in principle, but this one change sounds like it would have
> a notable benefit.

It probably would require minimal changes to client, server and
metaserver.  However, to keep compatibility for old clients what could
be done is add a new metaserver port to serve the new enhanced report
and leave the old port serve the old/current format, and have new
clients query that new port.

It would be possible (although considerably more work) to have the new
port require an HTTP 1.0+ request so that it could also serve for future
formats, the chosen version report and format sent could be based on
requested path, User-Agent, or some new custom field like
Metaserver-Version...  This would even allow to send an HTML report to a
browser.  Similarily, servers could send more information fields, and if
necessary the same new metaserver port could be used and support
multiple versions, using POST...

Actually, such a system would be easy to implement as a CGI on an
existing HTTP server as well.  SYSV shm would allow the CGI to
query/access the metaserver in-memory table.  Would it however be
reasonable to assume that a metaserver also runs an HTTP server?  Would
the CGI be considered slow because of the extra-forking, in which case a
FastCGI module would also be necessary, or some other kind of module?

New metaserver code could also be written from scratch in a high-level
language available as a module for apache (i.e. mod_php, mod_perl).
Alternatively, many high level languages also support HTTPd connector
modules, transforming easily a program into an HTTPd.  Would the
necessary requirements of using a higher level language (and the
associated higher overhead) be acceptable to metaserver admins?

If a minimal C HTTPd was to be embedded with future versions of the
metaserver code, it would need to cope properly with concurrent
bi-directional requests, possibly using non-blocking I/O in a single
process to minimize overhead rather than multiple threads or
processes...  It also would need basic flood protection (concurrent
requests allowed total and per address, requests frequency per address
and per request class).  And possibly support for blacklists.  But then
again this requires time to write and debug, which someone who cares
enough would have to put in...

Just a few ideas thrown in for inspiration.

-- 
Matthew Mondor
http://mmondor.pulsar-zone.net/


From netrek at gmail.com  Sat Dec  9 05:41:16 2006
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 06:41:16 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek web pages
In-Reply-To: <20061208230328.GA4068@orion.netrek.org>
References: <0qveksow82.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061205004408.GB4928@us.netrek.org>
	<0q3b7tovsp.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061207041225.GB6172@us.netrek.org>
	<0q4ps6nrlj.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061208230328.GA4068@orion.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0612090341p156f10c9u866e0ee062264804@mail.gmail.com>

I am interested.

Zach

On 12/8/06, Dave Ahn <ahn at orion.netrek.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 08, 2006 at 01:57:12PM -0500, Andrew K. Bressen wrote:
> >
> > James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> writes:
> > > Let me know if you think the genocide content should be in a darcs repo.
> >
> > Yes, absolutely.
>
> I disagree on this one.  I'd rather see the Netrek Home Page content in
> a semi-access-controlled Wiki than in what is essentially a source code
> repository.  The major problem with the Netrek Home Page in the past has
> been individual control and limited access where one or the few
> maintainer(s) become a bottleneck to maintaining active content.  I
> count myself as one of these individuals.
>
> > What are the scripts written in? What do I need
> > to install to replicate site functionality? (I have a home linux box
> > with apache and php already... do I need a cms?).
>
> Genocide's netrek pages are written in PHP.  I would prefer to move away
> from this because it requires one (or a group) of trusted maintainers
> with unrestricted access to one of the main netrek infrastructure
> servers.  Finding a balance between open host access and open editorial
> access can be difficult, and a Wiki is a great candidate.
>
> > To catch the rest of you up, we need some webpage work done.  The
> > genocide.netrek.org site (former www.netrek.org) looks to my mind
> > fantastic, and it'd be a huge amount of work to come up with something
> > else as good. If we're going to work on the webpages, I think the
> > effort is better placed towards updating and extending the
> > approximately 250 pages of existing content. So I'm trying to make
> > that happen.
>
> There are three reasons why the Netrek home pages (various incarnations)
> are in such a bad state:
>
> 1) The previous maintainer is gone, and nobody qualified has stepped up
>    to help assist in taking a leading role in maintaining the web pages.
>    Several people have volunteered for certain parts of the Netrek home
>    page, however, and they are waiting for set up and a lead.
> 2) Some existing owners/maintainers of other, more active netrek web pages
>    prefer to keep their content separate from www.netrek.org rather than
>    as an integral part of it.  There is nothing wrong with this, as that
>    is the nature of the WWW.
> 3) I have not had the time to move the genocide content over to
>    www.netrek.org's Wiki.
>
> If you or anyone else would be interested in a combined effort to
> (re)build the Netrek home page, I'd be happy to discuss this and can
> offer the appropriate access.
>
> Dave
>
> _______________________________________________
> netrek-dev mailing list
> netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
> http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev
>


From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to  Sat Dec  9 11:55:43 2006
From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen)
Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 12:55:43 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek web pages
In-Reply-To: <20061208230328.GA4068@orion.netrek.org> (Dave Ahn's message of
	"Fri, 8 Dec 2006 18:03:28 -0500")
References: <0qveksow82.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061205004408.GB4928@us.netrek.org>
	<0q3b7tovsp.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061207041225.GB6172@us.netrek.org>
	<0q4ps6nrlj.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061208230328.GA4068@orion.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <0qvekllzs0.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>


Are you proposing basing www.netrek.org primarily on wiki software?

I think a wiki could definately provide some useful site features,
but I have two serious reservations about _basing_ the site on a wiki
as opposed to making use of a wiki for some site areas. 

The primary reservation is looks.

Wikis look boring. 
I think we need a site that does not look boring in order to attract players.

To support existing players, with things like stats, game recodings, 
and so on, looking boring is ok. To support development, wikis are close to ideal.

Are there any wikis that can be made to look half as good as the genocide site?



From ahn at orion.netrek.org  Sat Dec  9 15:04:31 2006
From: ahn at orion.netrek.org (Dave Ahn)
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 16:04:31 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek web pages
In-Reply-To: <0qvekllzs0.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
References: <0qveksow82.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061205004408.GB4928@us.netrek.org>
	<0q3b7tovsp.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061207041225.GB6172@us.netrek.org>
	<0q4ps6nrlj.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061208230328.GA4068@orion.netrek.org>
	<0qvekllzs0.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
Message-ID: <20061209210431.GA12975@orion.netrek.org>

On Sat, Dec 09, 2006 at 12:55:43PM -0500, Andrew K. Bressen wrote:
> 
> Are you proposing basing www.netrek.org primarily on wiki software?

Primarily, but not entirely.  Wiki is a great tool, and it can probably
handle 90% of the text content at www.netrek.org, most of which could
use some editing, formating, or updating.  The remaining 10% would
probably require some custom dynamic scripts/programs to seamlessly
integrate various parts of the web site into the main page(s).  There
are, of course, numerous sections of the web site including the Netrek
Software Archive, Netrek Cinema, Netrek Stats Archive, which wouldn't be
well served by a Wiki but which could still be "mashed-up" to be
integrated into the main site.

The bottom line is that this is an awful lot of work.  We've gone
through several revamps of the main home page using static and dynamic
web pages, but the ultimate problem has always been the
single-maintainer issue.  I feel that the only sustainable solution to
this is some sort of distributed maintenance.

> I think a wiki could definately provide some useful site features,
> but I have two serious reservations about _basing_ the site on a wiki
> as opposed to making use of a wiki for some site areas. 

I actually would prefer a full CMS like Zope/Plone over a Wiki (or rather,
in conjunction with a Wiki), but the learning curve is too high for most
people.

> The primary reservation is looks.

> Are there any wikis that can be made to look half as good as the genocide site?

There is no reason why a wiki can't look as good as genocide, but it
would require some effort to have a consistent look and feel throughout
the web site.

Dave


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Sun Dec 10 20:57:08 2006
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 13:57:08 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] Strange activity on metaserver.us.netrek.org
In-Reply-To: <20061209063111.081bcace@sat.xisop>
References: <mailman.1.1165255202.1286.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>
	<03F67A5C-F9ED-419A-9E81-22CEDECC88DE@luky.nl>
	<20061205004726.GD4928@us.netrek.org>
	<BAY128-DAV7CA94982585414F84D5E9CBDE0@phx.gbl>
	<ecfa260c0612042051j2667608am1677e011e37e6872@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061206085305.41d0f015@sat.xisop>
	<0q4ps9ow8g.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061209063111.081bcace@sat.xisop>
Message-ID: <20061211025708.GA5701@us.netrek.org>

On Sat, Dec 09, 2006 at 06:31:11AM -0500, Matthew Mondor wrote:
> On Wed, 06 Dec 2006 10:54:55 -0500
> akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) wrote:
> 
> > One other question: if your server is a bot server, would it make sense
> > to have it also be a base-practice server? IE, could you drop the minimum
> > rank for a base to Ensign, and cut down the base recycle time? 
> 
> As for the recycle time I didn't see a keyword for it in the
> configuration file, and would have to check the code to find out if
> there's one. [...]

Added to the current code, either try this patch or pull from my repo.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/
-------------- next part --------------
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/sample_sysdef.in new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/sample_sysdef.in
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/sample_sysdef.in	2006-12-11 13:53:40.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/sample_sysdef.in	2006-12-11 13:53:43.000000000 +1100
@@ -101,6 +101,9 @@
 # 	(0 = no, 1 = yes)
 SAFE_IDLE=1
 #
+#	Rebuild time of starbase, in minutes
+STARBASE_REBUILD_TIME=30
+#
 # 	Which ship types are allowed
 SHIPS=SC,DD,CA,BB,AS,SB
 #
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/include/data.h new-netrek-server/Vanilla/include/data.h
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/include/data.h	2006-12-11 13:53:41.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/include/data.h	2006-12-11 13:53:43.000000000 +1100
@@ -386,5 +386,6 @@
 extern double baseupgradecost[];
 extern double adderupgradecost[];
 #endif
+extern int starbase_rebuild_time;
 
 #endif /* _h_data */
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/include/defs.h new-netrek-server/Vanilla/include/defs.h
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/include/defs.h	2006-12-11 13:53:41.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/include/defs.h	2006-12-11 13:53:43.000000000 +1100
@@ -189,7 +189,6 @@
 #define WARNTIME 30	/* Number of updates to have a warning on the screen */
 #define MESSTIME 30	/* Number of updates to have a message on the screen */
 
-#define BUILD_SB_TIME   30	/* Minutes to rebuild an SB 4/15/92 TC */
 #define MIN_COUP_TIME   30	/* Min/max minutes before a geno'ed race */
 #define MAX_COUP_TIME   60	/* can reenter and coup (random) 4/15/92 TC */
 
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/include/sysdefaults.h new-netrek-server/Vanilla/include/sysdefaults.h
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/include/sysdefaults.h	2006-12-11 13:53:41.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/include/sysdefaults.h	2006-12-11 13:53:43.000000000 +1100
@@ -246,6 +246,8 @@
   { "STURGEON_LITE",		SYSDEF_INT,	&sturgeon_lite,
     "Only lose most expensive upgrade on death." },
 #endif
+  { "STARBASE_REBUILD_TIME",	SYSDEF_INT,	&starbase_rebuild_time,
+    "Rebuild time of starbase, in minutes." },
   { "",			SYSDEF_END,	NULL		}
 };
 
@@ -261,6 +263,7 @@
 - use glade (http://glade.pn.org/) to add to gum/gum.xml and regenerate code
 - leave a comment below if your defaults have not been added to gum
 
+STARBASE_REBUILD_TIME
 STURGEON*
 EJECT_VOTE_*
 BAN_VOTE_*
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/ntserv/blog.c new-netrek-server/Vanilla/ntserv/blog.c
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/ntserv/blog.c	2006-12-11 13:53:41.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/ntserv/blog.c	2006-12-11 13:53:44.000000000 +1100
@@ -94,6 +94,11 @@
 void blog_base_loss(struct player *j)
 {
   blog_printf("racial", 
-              "%s lost their starbase\n\nStarbase with %d armies, piloted by %s, reported destroyed in valiant battle with enemy forces.  Reconstruction is underway.  Long live the %s.\n",
-              team_name(j->p_team), j->p_armies, j->p_name, team_name(j->p_team));
+              "%s lost their starbase\n\n"
+              "Starbase with %d armies, piloted by %s, "
+              "reported destroyed in valiant battle with enemy forces.  "
+              "Reconstruction is underway, due in %d minutes.  "
+              "Long live the %s.\n",
+              team_name(j->p_team), j->p_armies, j->p_name, 
+              starbase_rebuild_time, team_name(j->p_team));
 }
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/ntserv/daemonII.c new-netrek-server/Vanilla/ntserv/daemonII.c
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/ntserv/daemonII.c	2006-12-11 13:53:41.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/ntserv/daemonII.c	2006-12-11 13:53:44.000000000 +1100
@@ -1006,7 +1006,7 @@
                          (j->p_whydead == KPLASMA) ||
                          (j->p_whydead == KPLANET) ||
                          (j->p_whydead == KGENOCIDE)) && (status->tourn)) {
-                        teams[j->p_team].s_turns = BUILD_SB_TIME;
+                        teams[j->p_team].s_turns = starbase_rebuild_time;
                         if (j->p_status == PDEAD) blog_base_loss(j);
                     }
                 }
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/ntserv/data.c new-netrek-server/Vanilla/ntserv/data.c
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/ntserv/data.c	2006-12-11 13:53:41.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/ntserv/data.c	2006-12-11 13:53:44.000000000 +1100
@@ -444,3 +444,6 @@
 double adderupgradecost[]= { 0.0, 0.2, 0.5, 0.1, 1.5, 1.0, 0.1, 0.1, 0.5, 1.5,
                              3.0, 0.5, 1.5, 1.0, 0.5, 1.5, 1.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0 };
 #endif
+
+/* starbase rebuild time first implemented by TC in 1992-04-15 */
+int starbase_rebuild_time = 30;

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From williamb at its.caltech.edu  Mon Dec 11 06:12:20 2006
From: williamb at its.caltech.edu (William Balcerski)
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 04:12:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [netrek-dev] Update on server development
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0612110345260.12581@clyde>

I've noticed the list has been mostly quiet ever since September since I
stopped sending darcs patches to the list and instead hosted them on my
public repo.  Server development in the last 3 months has been fast and
furious by both James and myself.  His repo is http accessible with darcs
cgi to allow for patch browsing and such, for those who might be
interested here is the link:
http://james.tooraweenah.com/cgi-bin/darcs.cgi/netrek-server/
Please forgive me if you didn't want me to post that link James, thought
it's be ok as it's listed on the dev wiki.

Anyways, here are a list of the major changes made by both James and
myself, for those who can't be bothered to look at the repo:

Sysdef option for preT idling
Sysdef option to mute observers
Sysdef option to not allow permabanned people to connect
Sysdef option for admin password
Path tools for use in scripts and elsewhere
Sysdef option for DD and GA ranks
Multiple newbie and pret server enhancements such as new sysdef options
to control human/robot balance and numbers, as well as improved logic
regarding bot spawning.
Fix to blank login name bug
Fixes to cambot and INL stats paths so game stats properly are sent
to stats archive
RSS server feed, which creates a http blog with all sorts of events
(conquer, base death, pickup game full, etc).
Sysdef option to use guest names for robot names
Real-time daemon restart using SIGHUP
Sturgeon code merged into Vanilla!
Torps track practice robots
All torps expire 5 seconds max after death
Improvements to ship cap packets, such as support for observers,
and when using xtkill
Allowing bombing of all planets in t-mode opponent's home space
New individual transwarp permission toggle (i.e. transwarp off 0)
Sysdef option for starbase rebuild time
Persistent ignore settings by IP

I probably missed a few things too, with 100+ patches to go through.
Anyways just wanted to drop a line to make sure people know development
is still ongoing, even if this mailing list isn't the hotbed it was a
few months ago.

Bill


From williamb at its.caltech.edu  Mon Dec 11 06:20:28 2006
From: williamb at its.caltech.edu (William Balcerski)
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 04:20:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [netrek-dev] Listing INL servers on metaserver
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0612110414120.12681@clyde>

Turns out there is a solution in place already for listing INL servers on
the metaserver, reading the metaservers-HowTo actually is useful :0.  I've
listed both home and away ports on the warped INL server to metaserver2.
With permission, I'll report them to metaserver as well, on the day of the
clue games.  I'm a little foggy still on how the server gets automatically
delisted, if I remove the metaservers file it will get delisted in an hour
or so right?  Probably the best solution is to just change the metaserver
to not list any servers flagged as INL until they get 1 person, this has
actually been suggested before by E. Heitbrink.  Also, the right click to
observer option is broken..client assumes obs port is player port+1.  But
that's a minor issue, getting the servers to show up on the metaserver
will make it much easier to get people to actually play in these clue
games.  Of course I want to make sure it's non disruptive and not listed
all the time, which is why I'm asking permission and insight
into how servers get autoremoved beforehand :).
Bill


From netrek at gmail.com  Mon Dec 11 15:28:05 2006
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 16:28:05 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Update on server development
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0612110345260.12581@clyde>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0612110345260.12581@clyde>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0612111328r41567654pbf43f91558c88f40@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/11/06, William Balcerski <williamb at its.caltech.edu> wrote:
> I've noticed the list has been mostly quiet ever since September since I
> stopped sending darcs patches to the list and instead hosted them on my
> public repo.  Server development in the last 3 months has been fast and

What is the address of your public repo?

Zach


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Mon Dec 11 15:45:43 2006
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 08:45:43 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] Update on server development
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0612111328r41567654pbf43f91558c88f40@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0612110345260.12581@clyde>
	<ecfa260c0612111328r41567654pbf43f91558c88f40@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20061211214543.GA4545@us.netrek.org>

On Mon, Dec 11, 2006 at 04:28:05PM -0500, Zach wrote:
> What is the address of your public repo?

http://netrek.warped.us/public-server/

You can find this in the development wiki as well.
http://wiki.us.netrek.org/netrek-dev/SourceControl

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From netrek at gmail.com  Mon Dec 11 17:04:48 2006
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 18:04:48 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Update on server development
In-Reply-To: <20061211214543.GA4545@us.netrek.org>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0612110345260.12581@clyde>
	<ecfa260c0612111328r41567654pbf43f91558c88f40@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061211214543.GA4545@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0612111504p6799ae67pb890fef1929cae86@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks

Zach

On 12/11/06, James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 11, 2006 at 04:28:05PM -0500, Zach wrote:
> > What is the address of your public repo?
>
> http://netrek.warped.us/public-server/
>
> You can find this in the development wiki as well.
> http://wiki.us.netrek.org/netrek-dev/SourceControl
>
> --
> James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/
>
> _______________________________________________
> netrek-dev mailing list
> netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
> http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev
>


From jjadeinc at hotmail.com  Mon Dec 11 21:26:30 2006
From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango)
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 19:26:30 -0800
Subject: [netrek-dev] Redirect for Netrek Newbie Manual?
Message-ID: <BAY128-DAV1F8A444F461FCDD45C6E3CBD70@phx.gbl>

Can a redirect be put in place at http://www.netrek.org/cow/current/newbie.html to point to http://genocide.netrek.org/beginner/newbie.php   ?

There is a really nice newbie manual at the genocide address.  XP Mod points to the old address (http://www.netrek.org/cow/current/newbie.html) on the metaserver listing which is no longer there.  Seems easier to put a redirect in place rather then recompiling the client and rebuilding all the installers currently in place.


Thanks,

Joe
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From quozl at us.netrek.org  Tue Dec 12 17:04:03 2006
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 10:04:03 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] Redirect for Netrek Newbie Manual?
In-Reply-To: <BAY128-DAV1F8A444F461FCDD45C6E3CBD70@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY128-DAV1F8A444F461FCDD45C6E3CBD70@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20061212230403.GA3962@us.netrek.org>

On Mon, Dec 11, 2006 at 07:26:30PM -0800, Joe Evango wrote:
> Can a redirect be put in place at
> http://www.netrek.org/cow/current/newbie.html to point to
> http://genocide.netrek.org/beginner/newbie.php   ?

Done, please review.  Patches welcome.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From stephen.thorne at gmail.com  Tue Dec 12 21:01:41 2006
From: stephen.thorne at gmail.com (Stephen Thorne)
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 13:01:41 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Redirect for Netrek Newbie Manual?
In-Reply-To: <20061212230403.GA3962@us.netrek.org>
References: <BAY128-DAV1F8A444F461FCDD45C6E3CBD70@phx.gbl>
	<20061212230403.GA3962@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <3e8ca5c80612121901q74bd658ar162ccd8a4c82fac2@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/13/06, James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 11, 2006 at 07:26:30PM -0800, Joe Evango wrote:
> > Can a redirect be put in place at
> > http://www.netrek.org/cow/current/newbie.html to point to
> > http://genocide.netrek.org/beginner/newbie.php   ?
>
> Done, please review.  Patches welcome.

This has been patched to also do a meta-refresh redirect now :)

-- 
Stephen Thorne

"Give me enough bandwidth and a place to sit and I will move the world."
  --Jonathan Lange


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Wed Dec 13 04:29:58 2006
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 21:29:58 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] Generic 32
Message-ID: <20061213102958.GA21689@us.netrek.org>

Protocol change ... addition of planet number being orbited, and server
calculated repair time to shields and hull.  Only available for self.

Does anyone see any potential real abuse that may affect balance?

It seems that both values could easily be derived from the data stream
already, and so adding them to the protocol doesn't seem to be much of a
problem.

Needless to say, the new packet is only sent if the client sends a
feature agreement for it.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to  Wed Dec 13 14:15:59 2006
From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen)
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 15:15:59 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Generic 32
In-Reply-To: <20061213102958.GA21689@us.netrek.org> (James Cameron's message
	of "Wed, 13 Dec 2006 21:29:58 +1100")
References: <20061213102958.GA21689@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <0q8xhblfgg.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>


James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> writes:
> It seems that both values could easily be derived from the data stream
> already, and so adding them to the protocol doesn't seem to be much of a
> problem.

paradise2000 already provides a repair timer. 



From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to  Wed Dec 13 14:20:04 2006
From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen)
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 15:20:04 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek web pages
In-Reply-To: <20061209210431.GA12975@orion.netrek.org> (Dave Ahn's message
	of "Sat, 9 Dec 2006 16:04:31 -0500")
References: <0qveksow82.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061205004408.GB4928@us.netrek.org>
	<0q3b7tovsp.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061207041225.GB6172@us.netrek.org>
	<0q4ps6nrlj.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061208230328.GA4068@orion.netrek.org>
	<0qvekllzs0.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061209210431.GA12975@orion.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <0q7iwvlf9n.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>


(I hope the following doesn't come across as overly harsh)

Dave Ahn:
> The bottom line is that this is an awful lot of work.  We've gone

I think redoing the entire infrastructure into a form that requires at
least twice as much sysadmin work, a new learning curve for site
designers, a complete redesign using the new tools, and then
transcribing and rewriting a couple hundred pages is a heck of a lot
more work than putting the old site into darcs and doing some editing.

> through several revamps of the main home page using static and dynamic
> web pages, but the ultimate problem has always been the
> single-maintainer issue.  I feel that the only sustainable solution to
> this is some sort of distributed maintenance.

Is that really the ultimate problem, though? 
And if so, would the new generation of distributed source code 
control systems do nothing to alleviate it? 

I thought our current problems stemmed from the old server crashing 
and it taking months for the content to get restored. That situation 
could well have been far worse if the site had been wiki-based. Would
having a bunch of wiki editors have helped? 

We can get the old site online in weeks; a new wiki and all it entails
is almost certainly months. Mac client downloads are happening now. 


  --akb



From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to  Wed Dec 13 14:30:14 2006
From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen)
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 15:30:14 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] bot server on metaserver1?
Message-ID: <0qzm9rk089.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>


Can we get pulsar-zone put into metaserver1? 

I think it's important to have a bot server always available
and visible for noobs...



From rado at math.uni-hamburg.de  Wed Dec 13 14:45:25 2006
From: rado at math.uni-hamburg.de (Rado S)
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 21:45:25 +0100
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek web pages
In-Reply-To: <0q7iwvlf9n.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
References: <0qveksow82.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061205004408.GB4928@us.netrek.org>
	<0q3b7tovsp.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061207041225.GB6172@us.netrek.org>
	<0q4ps6nrlj.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061208230328.GA4068@orion.netrek.org>
	<0qvekllzs0.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061209210431.GA12975@orion.netrek.org>
	<0q7iwvlf9n.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
Message-ID: <20061213204525.GH8327@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- Andrew K. Bressen wrote on Wed 13.Dec'06 at 15:20:04 -0500 -=

> (I hope the following doesn't come across as overly harsh)

We all focus on the advancement of the game, so no worries.

> I think redoing the entire infrastructure {...} is a heck of a lot
> more work than putting the old site into darcs and doing some editing.

Well, you have to balance effort spent now vs. spent later.
Given the options of this (and technology alternatives), I prefer
the long term advantage: revamp now to an easier
modularizable(?) and maintainable system.

Not being familiar with darcs yet (and generally preferring less
tech- requirements for editorial work) I'd rather see a wiki than
darcs.

> {...} a complete redesign using the new tools, and then
> transcribing and rewriting a couple hundred pages

I think this is not a disadvantage, but rather a chance to update
and throw away old stuff, rewrite it to current state.

> I thought our current problems stemmed from the old server
> crashing and it taking months for the content to get restored.

There were (at least) 2 problems: hardware and human-power.
Mere restoration wouldn't be enough.

> That situation could well have been far worse if the site had
> been wiki-based.

Uh, why?

> Would having a bunch of wiki editors have helped?

Not with the hardware, but with the editing, yes.

> We can get the old site online in weeks; a new wiki and all it
> entails is almost certainly months.

We need to keep the long term in mind, too.
Always looking just at the immediate future is too short.
And "weeks" is too much. I heard Dave just needs to say "Go". ;)

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
Even if it seems insignificant, in fact EVERY effort counts
for a shared task, at least to show your deserving attitude.


From williamb at its.caltech.edu  Wed Dec 13 15:49:32 2006
From: williamb at its.caltech.edu (William Balcerski)
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 13:49:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [netrek-dev] Generic 32
In-Reply-To: <0q8xhblfgg.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
References: <20061213102958.GA21689@us.netrek.org>
	<0q8xhblfgg.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0612131344540.78@blinky>

Yea both netrek XP and paradise2000 have dashboard repair timers as well
as the ability to guess which planet you are orbitting (used to display
army count on tactical).  There are situations where both can fail though
- if planets can move and they overlap, finding closest planet to your
ship is not always the planet you are orbitting.  And for repair time, it
fails for observers who cannot know the war decs of the person they are
observing - thus when observee is orbitting an enemy repair planet, it's
only a guess as to whether that player is gaining the repair bonus.
Bill

On Wed, 13 Dec 2006, Andrew K. Bressen wrote:

>
> James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> writes:
> > It seems that both values could easily be derived from the data stream
> > already, and so adding them to the protocol doesn't seem to be much of a
> > problem.
>
> paradise2000 already provides a repair timer.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> netrek-dev mailing list
> netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
> http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev
>
>


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Wed Dec 13 16:16:00 2006
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 09:16:00 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] Generic 32
In-Reply-To: <0q8xhblfgg.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
References: <20061213102958.GA21689@us.netrek.org>
	<0q8xhblfgg.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
Message-ID: <20061213221600.GB4848@us.netrek.org>

On Wed, Dec 13, 2006 at 03:15:59PM -0500, Andrew K. Bressen wrote:
> paradise2000 already provides a repair timer. 

Yes, and the source is closed, and platforms are restricted.  I presume
it provides this by derivation or interpolation.  If the server provides
the packet, the next version of paradise 2000 will be able to use it.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Wed Dec 13 16:22:26 2006
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 09:22:26 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek web pages
In-Reply-To: <20061213204525.GH8327@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <0qveksow82.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061205004408.GB4928@us.netrek.org>
	<0q3b7tovsp.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061207041225.GB6172@us.netrek.org>
	<0q4ps6nrlj.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061208230328.GA4068@orion.netrek.org>
	<0qvekllzs0.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061209210431.GA12975@orion.netrek.org>
	<0q7iwvlf9n.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061213204525.GH8327@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20061213222226.GC4848@us.netrek.org>

On Wed, Dec 13, 2006 at 09:45:25PM +0100, Rado S wrote:
> Not being familiar with darcs yet (and generally preferring less
> tech- requirements for editorial work) I'd rather see a wiki than
> darcs.

We've both at the moment.  There is a wiki for development topics, but
it could contain temporary topics that deserve to be player facing, all
it lacks is the content.

darcs is currently used for netrek.org, vanilla.us.netrek.org,
continuum, metaserver, and a few other minor things like source code.

I'm quite happy to explain darcs to anyone who needs to know how to use
it ... it is really quite simple.  Not significantly different to other
tools.

1.  install darcs,

2.  use "darcs get http://www.netrek.org/" to get a copy of the
repository downloaded,

3.  make changes using editors of your choice,

4.  use "darcs add" if you add any new files,

5.  use "darcs record" to have your changes recorded as a changeset,

6.  use "darcs send" to send the changes to the mailing list or
maintainer, or use "darcs push" to send the changes to a directory you
have made available for others to access over HTTP.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Wed Dec 13 16:50:57 2006
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 09:50:57 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] Generic 32
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0612131344540.78@blinky>
References: <20061213102958.GA21689@us.netrek.org>
	<0q8xhblfgg.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<Pine.GSO.4.58.0612131344540.78@blinky>
Message-ID: <20061213225057.GD4848@us.netrek.org>

On Wed, Dec 13, 2006 at 01:49:32PM -0800, William Balcerski wrote:
> thus when observee is orbitting an enemy repair planet, it's only a
> guess as to whether that player is gaining the repair bonus.

But it is easy to detect ... just take samples of repair status every
update, determine a gradient, predict the future repair time.  It isn't
rocket science.  Remember too that the ship could be upgraded, or refit
to clear hull damage.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Wed Dec 13 17:01:11 2006
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:01:11 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] bot server on metaserver1?
In-Reply-To: <0qzm9rk089.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
References: <0qzm9rk089.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
Message-ID: <20061213230111.GE4848@us.netrek.org>

On Wed, Dec 13, 2006 at 03:30:14PM -0500, Andrew K. Bressen wrote:
> Can we get pulsar-zone put into metaserver1? 
> I think it's important to have a bot server always available
> and visible for noobs...

So I'll add pre-t bots to continuum instead.  It might yet be working,
if not, I'll take any assistance others can provide to fix the problems.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From xyzzy at speakeasy.org  Wed Dec 13 21:05:21 2006
From: xyzzy at speakeasy.org (Trent Piepho)
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 19:05:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [netrek-dev] Generic 32
In-Reply-To: <20061213221600.GB4848@us.netrek.org>
References: <20061213102958.GA21689@us.netrek.org>
	<0q8xhblfgg.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061213221600.GB4848@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0612131904130.28677@shell3.speakeasy.net>



On Thu, 14 Dec 2006, James Cameron wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 13, 2006 at 03:15:59PM -0500, Andrew K. Bressen wrote:
> > paradise2000 already provides a repair timer.
>
> Yes, and the source is closed, and platforms are restricted.  I presume
> it provides this by derivation or interpolation.  If the server provide

Don't see netrekxp for many platforms either.

> the packet, the next version of paradise 2000 will be able to use it.
>
> --
> James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/
>
> _______________________________________________
> netrek-dev mailing list
> netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
> http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev
>


From rado at math.uni-hamburg.de  Thu Dec 14 09:32:42 2006
From: rado at math.uni-hamburg.de (Rado S)
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 16:32:42 +0100
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek web pages
In-Reply-To: <20061213222226.GC4848@us.netrek.org>
References: <20061205004408.GB4928@us.netrek.org>
	<0q3b7tovsp.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061207041225.GB6172@us.netrek.org>
	<0q4ps6nrlj.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061208230328.GA4068@orion.netrek.org>
	<0qvekllzs0.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061209210431.GA12975@orion.netrek.org>
	<0q7iwvlf9n.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061213204525.GH8327@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20061213222226.GC4848@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20061214153242.GF938@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- James Cameron wrote on Thu 14.Dec'06 at  9:22:26 +1100 -=

> On Wed, Dec 13, 2006 at 09:45:25PM +0100, Rado S wrote:
> > Not being familiar with darcs yet (and generally preferring less
> > tech- requirements for editorial work) I'd rather see a wiki than
> > darcs.
> 
> We've both at the moment. There is a wiki for development
> topics, but it could contain temporary topics that deserve to be
> player facing, all it lacks is the content.
> 
> darcs is currently used for netrek.org, vanilla.us.netrek.org,
> continuum, metaserver, and a few other minor things like source code.
> {...}
> it is really quite simple.  Not significantly different to other tools.
> { steps for an update }
> 6. use "darcs send" to send the changes to the mailing list or
> maintainer, or use "darcs push" to send the changes to a directory
> you have made available for others to access over HTTP.

Despite its simplicity, having witnessed the flood of darcs
patches a few weeks ago, I prefer the less noisy wiki way.
Once the groundwork has been done, following updates will be only
minor, and then I'd like simply to edit it "right in the browser"
and be done. But that's just me.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
Even if it seems insignificant, in fact EVERY effort counts
for a shared task, at least to show your deserving attitude.


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Thu Dec 14 15:54:46 2006
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 08:54:46 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek web pages
In-Reply-To: <20061214153242.GF938@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <0q3b7tovsp.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061207041225.GB6172@us.netrek.org>
	<0q4ps6nrlj.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061208230328.GA4068@orion.netrek.org>
	<0qvekllzs0.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061209210431.GA12975@orion.netrek.org>
	<0q7iwvlf9n.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061213204525.GH8327@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20061213222226.GC4848@us.netrek.org>
	<20061214153242.GF938@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20061214215446.GA4622@us.netrek.org>

On Thu, Dec 14, 2006 at 04:32:42PM +0100, Rado S wrote:
> Despite its simplicity, having witnessed the flood of darcs
> patches a few weeks ago, I prefer the less noisy wiki way.

You've been misled by your observations.  The closer patch exchange
between myself and Bill for example using "darcs push" and "darcs pull"
has kept the activity off the mailing list.  You can still see it in the
RSS feeds though.

> Once the groundwork has been done, following updates will be only
> minor, and then I'd like simply to edit it "right in the browser"
> and be done. But that's just me.

Well, that mode of operation is already available, so go ahead and get
involved.  Those of us with RSS aggregators attached to the Wiki's RSS
feed will notice your work and review it.

The Wiki address is
http://wiki.us.netrek.org/netrek-dev/

The list of recent pages (if you don't use RSS) can be found
http://wiki.us.netrek.org/netrek-dev/RecentChanges

And it is included in the rawdog RSS to HTML conversion
http://netrek.org/rawdog/development/rawdog.html

You'll need to create yourself an account using the preferences link.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From netrek at gmail.com  Thu Dec 14 17:19:12 2006
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 18:19:12 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Paradise client settings?
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0612141519y28e71919y6e9fd9013b4f7e18@mail.gmail.com>

Trent's Paradise 2000 client will not run on my Linux system. I've
tried RC3->RC5. But I am able to run Paradise 2.99, however I can't
get it to accept my macro key (TAB) and shift-x is too awkward/slow.
Does anyone know what is the correct way to define your own macro key
in the Paradise clients? Also I can't get the RCDs working. If I do
Ctrl-t for example it toggles the dashboard clock between different
time formats. The custom macro key and RCDs work fine in every Windows
client I've used.

Zach


From netrek at gmail.com  Thu Dec 14 18:01:21 2006
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 19:01:21 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Paradise 2.99 client source?
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0612141601i2577043ch20f341cf24ef7962@mail.gmail.com>

I cannot find any source code for the Paradise 2.99 client (the one
that doesn't expire).
Can someone PLEASE send me a copy of the src if you have it or tell me
where I can download it.

I've looked in these dirs:
http://ftp.netrek.org/pub/paradise/client/
http://ftp.netrek.org/pub/netrek/paradise/client/
http://ftp.netrek.org/pub/netrek/clients/paradise/

Thanks,
Zach


From netrek at gmail.com  Thu Dec 14 20:04:45 2006
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 21:04:45 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] queue hosts
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0612141804v7490bfaem493e43269b8f0c3b@mail.gmail.com>

'queue hosts' no longer shows the hostnames which is problematic for
indentifying who is on the queue. it just shows the ip. can we have it
go back to the old style or at least show hostname and ip or some
combination thereof?

zach


From rado at math.uni-hamburg.de  Fri Dec 15 08:40:52 2006
From: rado at math.uni-hamburg.de (Rado S)
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 15:40:52 +0100
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek web pages
In-Reply-To: <20061214215446.GA4622@us.netrek.org>
References: <20061207041225.GB6172@us.netrek.org>
	<0q4ps6nrlj.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061208230328.GA4068@orion.netrek.org>
	<0qvekllzs0.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061209210431.GA12975@orion.netrek.org>
	<0q7iwvlf9n.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061213204525.GH8327@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20061213222226.GC4848@us.netrek.org>
	<20061214153242.GF938@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20061214215446.GA4622@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20061215144052.GE5283@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- James Cameron wrote on Fri 15.Dec'06 at  8:54:46 +1100 -=

> On Thu, Dec 14, 2006 at 04:32:42PM +0100, Rado S wrote:
> > Despite its simplicity, having witnessed the flood of darcs
> > patches a few weeks ago, I prefer the less noisy wiki way.
> 
> You've been misled by your observations. The closer patch
> exchange between myself and Bill for example using "darcs push"
> and "darcs pull" has kept the activity off the mailing list. You
> can still see it in the RSS feeds though.

Hum, producing 10KB+ patch data by attached complete history for single
line change is overkill for my taste, even if it's kept off list.
Last time I asked in #netrek Bill didn't know how to turn this off,
and I didn't notice anybody else's answer to this.

> > Once the groundwork has been done, following updates will be
> > only minor, and then I'd like simply to edit it "right in the
> > browser" and be done. But that's just me.
> 
> Well, that mode of operation is already available, so go ahead
> and get involved. Those of us with RSS aggregators attached to
> the Wiki's RSS feed will notice your work and review it.

I know a bit about wiki'ing, though I'm still waiting for the
"main" wiki release, not "just" the netrek-dev wiki.
If the wiki for netrek.org is definitely not coming, then let's
know, and I'll turn to netrek-dev. Thanks for the invitation. :)
(but I still hope for www.netrek.org wiki :)

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
Even if it seems insignificant, in fact EVERY effort counts
for a shared task, at least to show your deserving attitude.


From rado at math.uni-hamburg.de  Fri Dec 15 15:30:13 2006
From: rado at math.uni-hamburg.de (Rado S)
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 22:30:13 +0100
Subject: [netrek-dev] Paradise 2.99 client source?
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0612141602y629e979g21235684660a0826@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0612141601i2577043ch20f341cf24ef7962@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0612141619u1066507dyd56494170a6cbab4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ecfa260c0612141602y629e979g21235684660a0826@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0612141601i2577043ch20f341cf24ef7962@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0612141619u1066507dyd56494170a6cbab4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20061215213013.GD13665@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

Moin moin,

Zach, please, don't do so much coffee/ drugs, relax!
I read the mailing-list, especially when you see me posting, no
need for sending to me directly, too. And I'm not _the_ or _only_
Paradise dude (hopefully! ;), so your best chances are on this or
the Paradise lists.

=- Zach wrote on Thu 14.Dec'06 at 19:19:04 -0500 -=

> I cannot find any source code for the Paradise 2.99 client (the
> one that doesn't expire).
> Can someone PLEASE send me a copy of the src if you have it or
> tell me where I can download it.

D'oh, I guess it's time for the wiki so I can update things. ;)

I have 2.4p3, I'm not sure which version Dave used to compile
2.99Final (there was NO such version officially, IIRC, he just
called it that way to reflect the final yet incomplete status).
But I don't know what the last real version was.

> PS: Is anyone interesting in getting a paradise server running
> and trying to organize games?

Sure, I am.
Even if I couldn't stay to play full-time games, I could hang
around to occasionally point curious newbies into the right
directions.

> Bill Balserski was able to revive Sturgeon and his server had
> enjoyed pickup games weekly since. I'm sure the same can be done
> for Paradise.

Only with a fresh and windows-ready client, which doesn't exist.

> Was any work on a Windows port of a client or server ever done
> or would anyone be interested in that?

In having it: yes! :)
Done: nothing that is of use now, since the source has been lost.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
Even if it seems insignificant, in fact EVERY effort counts
for a shared task, at least to show your deserving attitude.


From netrek at gmail.com  Fri Dec 15 15:37:55 2006
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 16:37:55 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Paradise 2.99 client source?
In-Reply-To: <20061215213013.GD13665@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <ecfa260c0612141602y629e979g21235684660a0826@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0612141601i2577043ch20f341cf24ef7962@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0612141619u1066507dyd56494170a6cbab4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061215213013.GD13665@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0612151337w46d9962fxf6c43b116a0415bb@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/15/06, Rado S <rado at math.uni-hamburg.de> wrote:
> Moin moin,
>
> Zach, please, don't do so much coffee/ drugs, relax!

Hallo Rado,

Traurig :-)

> I read the mailing-list, especially when you see me posting, no
> need for sending to me directly, too. And I'm not _the_ or _only_
> Paradise dude (hopefully! ;), so your best chances are on this or
> the Paradise lists.

I tried sending to the Paradise list and said my message bounced and
was being held for the moderator to see. I couldn't find any
instructions on how to subscribe to the paradise-workers list.

> D'oh, I guess it's time for the wiki so I can update things. ;)

Yeah I also like idea of a wiki.

> I have 2.4p3, I'm not sure which version Dave used to compile
> 2.99Final (there was NO such version officially, IIRC, he just
> called it that way to reflect the final yet incomplete status).
> But I don't know what the last real version was.

Ah I see. Could you send me the 2.4p3 source as a tarball?

> Sure, I am.
> Even if I couldn't stay to play full-time games, I could hang
> around to occasionally point curious newbies into the right
> directions.

That's good.

> Only with a fresh and windows-ready client, which doesn't exist.

What features would be critical for a Windows paradise client? How
would it be different than Bill's Windows XP client for example?

> In having it: yes! :)
> Done: nothing that is of use now, since the source has been lost.

Ah I see. Anyone else besides us interested in this?

Zach


From rado at math.uni-hamburg.de  Fri Dec 15 15:41:08 2006
From: rado at math.uni-hamburg.de (Rado S)
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 22:41:08 +0100
Subject: [netrek-dev] Paradise client settings?
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0612141519y28e71919y6e9fd9013b4f7e18@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ecfa260c0612141519y28e71919y6e9fd9013b4f7e18@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20061215214108.GE13665@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- Zach wrote on Thu 14.Dec'06 at 18:19:12 -0500 -=

> however I can't get it to accept my macro key (TAB) and shift-x
> is too awkward/slow. Does anyone know what is the correct way to
> define your own macro key in the Paradise clients?

mac.[].<>: string

[]: any key, try ^i for Tab.
<>: target, T for team, % codes for mouse or ship-pos related.

> Also I can't get the RCDs working. If I do Ctrl-t for example it
> toggles the dashboard clock between different time formats. The
> custom macro key and RCDs work fine in every Windows client I've
> used.

IIRC RCD are still macros, so you need to invoke the macro-key
first, which probably is not ^t. There is "singleMacro" directive
which lets you specify which macros are activated directly with
the key specified without using the macro-invocation key.
Beware: the keys used (unexpectedly) override any native functions
the keys originally might have had, it's not just remap:
 "singlemacro: pkt" would disable phaser, course, torps altogether.
Any keymap using pkt would refer to the singlemacros, not the
functions.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
Even if it seems insignificant, in fact EVERY effort counts
for a shared task, at least to show your deserving attitude.


From ahn at orion.netrek.org  Fri Dec 15 15:38:05 2006
From: ahn at orion.netrek.org (Dave Ahn)
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 16:38:05 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek web pages
In-Reply-To: <20061215144052.GE5283@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <0q4ps6nrlj.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061208230328.GA4068@orion.netrek.org>
	<0qvekllzs0.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061209210431.GA12975@orion.netrek.org>
	<0q7iwvlf9n.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061213204525.GH8327@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20061213222226.GC4848@us.netrek.org>
	<20061214153242.GF938@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20061214215446.GA4622@us.netrek.org>
	<20061215144052.GE5283@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20061215213805.GA7288@orion.netrek.org>

On Fri, Dec 15, 2006 at 03:40:52PM +0100, Rado S wrote:
> (but I still hope for www.netrek.org wiki :)

I guess I better put in some time to make this happen.  It's been long
enough...



From ahn at orion.netrek.org  Fri Dec 15 15:40:46 2006
From: ahn at orion.netrek.org (Dave Ahn)
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 16:40:46 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Paradise 2.99 client source?
In-Reply-To: <20061215213013.GD13665@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <ecfa260c0612141602y629e979g21235684660a0826@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0612141601i2577043ch20f341cf24ef7962@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0612141619u1066507dyd56494170a6cbab4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061215213013.GD13665@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20061215214046.GB7288@orion.netrek.org>

On Fri, Dec 15, 2006 at 10:30:13PM +0100, Rado S wrote:
> 
> I have 2.4p3, I'm not sure which version Dave used to compile
> 2.99Final (there was NO such version officially, IIRC, he just
> called it that way to reflect the final yet incomplete status).

The source code is (or was) in CVS.  I believe I made some minor changes
to the 2.4 client in making the 2.99 final release, but you can just
work off the 2.4 source.



From ahn at orion.netrek.org  Fri Dec 15 16:07:22 2006
From: ahn at orion.netrek.org (Dave Ahn)
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 17:07:22 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek web pages
In-Reply-To: <0q7iwvlf9n.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
References: <0qveksow82.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061205004408.GB4928@us.netrek.org>
	<0q3b7tovsp.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061207041225.GB6172@us.netrek.org>
	<0q4ps6nrlj.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061208230328.GA4068@orion.netrek.org>
	<0qvekllzs0.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061209210431.GA12975@orion.netrek.org>
	<0q7iwvlf9n.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
Message-ID: <20061215220722.GC7288@orion.netrek.org>

On Wed, Dec 13, 2006 at 03:20:04PM -0500, Andrew K. Bressen wrote:
> 
> I thought our current problems stemmed from the old server crashing 
> and it taking months for the content to get restored.

No, the old site was outdated long before the disk drive failed.  The
replacement of the server hardware just resulted in an outdated web site
becoming unavailable.

> could well have been far worse if the site had been wiki-based. Would
> having a bunch of wiki editors have helped?

It would not have been any worse.  But having more people to maintain
content would have meant less waiting for me or James to fix broken
content.

> We can get the old site online in weeks; a new wiki and all it entails
> is almost certainly months. Mac client downloads are happening now. 

It'd be great to automate the process of file releases on netrek.org
like it is on sf.net with an RSS type feed for "Recent Releases" or
"News" right on the front page of the new downloads.  This would allow
software maintainers to directly upload their releases to netrek.org.

Anyway, you are right, the old site could be brought online quickly, and
a new wiki would take a much longer time to fully populate.




From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to  Fri Dec 15 18:22:58 2006
From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen)
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 19:22:58 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Paradise 2.99 client source?
In-Reply-To: <20061215213013.GD13665@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> (Rado S.'s
	message of "Fri, 15 Dec 2006 22:30:13 +0100")
References: <ecfa260c0612141602y629e979g21235684660a0826@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0612141601i2577043ch20f341cf24ef7962@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0612141619u1066507dyd56494170a6cbab4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061215213013.GD13665@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <0qr6v0it99.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>


>> I cannot find any source code for the Paradise 2.99 client (the
>> one that doesn't expire).
>> Can someone PLEASE send me a copy of the src if you have it or
>> tell me where I can download it.

Rado S <rado at math.uni-hamburg.de> writes:
> D'oh, I guess it's time for the wiki so I can update things. ;)

For dev stuff, there already is a wiki...



From netrek at gmail.com  Fri Dec 15 20:32:28 2006
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 21:32:28 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Paradise 2.99 client source?
In-Reply-To: <20061215214046.GB7288@orion.netrek.org>
References: <ecfa260c0612141602y629e979g21235684660a0826@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0612141601i2577043ch20f341cf24ef7962@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0612141619u1066507dyd56494170a6cbab4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061215213013.GD13665@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20061215214046.GB7288@orion.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0612151832m6fc187edgc864dd9af0455ece@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/15/06, Dave Ahn <ahn at orion.netrek.org> wrote:
>
> The source code is (or was) in CVS.  I believe I made some minor changes
> to the 2.4 client in making the 2.99 final release, but you can just
> work off the 2.4 source.

Dave do you have instructions on pulling this off of CVS such as the
pserver name, user/pass, checkout directory. Or if you could send me a
tarball.

Thanks,
Zach


From ahn at orion.netrek.org  Sat Dec 16 00:30:16 2006
From: ahn at orion.netrek.org (Dave Ahn)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 01:30:16 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Paradise 2.99 client source?
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0612151832m6fc187edgc864dd9af0455ece@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ecfa260c0612141602y629e979g21235684660a0826@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0612141601i2577043ch20f341cf24ef7962@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0612141619u1066507dyd56494170a6cbab4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061215213013.GD13665@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20061215214046.GB7288@orion.netrek.org>
	<ecfa260c0612151832m6fc187edgc864dd9af0455ece@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20061216063016.GA8139@orion.netrek.org>

On Fri, Dec 15, 2006 at 09:32:28PM -0500, Zach wrote:
> On 12/15/06, Dave Ahn <ahn at orion.netrek.org> wrote:
> >
> > The source code is (or was) in CVS.  I believe I made some minor changes
> > to the 2.4 client in making the 2.99 final release, but you can just
> > work off the 2.4 source.
> 
> Dave do you have instructions on pulling this off of CVS such as the
> pserver name, user/pass, checkout directory. Or if you could send me a
> tarball.

I thought the CVS archive was on paradise.sf.net, but it looks like the
code was never released there.  No doubt the CVS repo is sitting
archived somewhere on one of the backups on the server.  Your best bet is
to just download 2.4p1B source from http://ftp.netrek.org.

> 
> Thanks,
> Zach
> 
> _______________________________________________
> netrek-dev mailing list
> netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
> http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev


From netrek at gmail.com  Sat Dec 16 01:03:59 2006
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 02:03:59 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Paradise 2.99 client source?
In-Reply-To: <20061216063016.GA8139@orion.netrek.org>
References: <ecfa260c0612141602y629e979g21235684660a0826@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0612141601i2577043ch20f341cf24ef7962@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0612141619u1066507dyd56494170a6cbab4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061215213013.GD13665@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20061215214046.GB7288@orion.netrek.org>
	<ecfa260c0612151832m6fc187edgc864dd9af0455ece@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061216063016.GA8139@orion.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0612152303v1d31ac38n7a3ba56464e6833@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/16/06, Dave Ahn <ahn at orion.netrek.org> wrote:
>
> I thought the CVS archive was on paradise.sf.net, but it looks like the
> code was never released there.  No doubt the CVS repo is sitting
> archived somewhere on one of the backups on the server.  Your best bet is
> to just download 2.4p1B source from http://ftp.netrek.org.

Ok thanks. Maybe Rado could ask SF to restore the repo from a backup.

Zach


From netrek at gmail.com  Sat Dec 16 01:15:19 2006
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 02:15:19 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek web pages
In-Reply-To: <20061208230328.GA4068@orion.netrek.org>
References: <0qveksow82.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061205004408.GB4928@us.netrek.org>
	<0q3b7tovsp.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061207041225.GB6172@us.netrek.org>
	<0q4ps6nrlj.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061208230328.GA4068@orion.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0612152315i6bad0df7p19868ffe3a8dc540@mail.gmail.com>

Here's a site, LFS [1], which uses a wiki content management system
called Trac [2] that looks nice. Maybe www.netrek.org could adopt it.

[1] http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/
[2] http://trac.cross-lfs.org/about

Zach


From rado at math.uni-hamburg.de  Sat Dec 16 10:36:30 2006
From: rado at math.uni-hamburg.de (Rado S)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 17:36:30 +0100
Subject: [netrek-dev] Paradise 2.99 client source?
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0612152303v1d31ac38n7a3ba56464e6833@mail.gmail.com>
	<0qr6v0it99.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<ecfa260c0612151337w46d9962fxf6c43b116a0415bb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ecfa260c0612141602y629e979g21235684660a0826@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0612141601i2577043ch20f341cf24ef7962@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0612141619u1066507dyd56494170a6cbab4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061215213013.GD13665@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<0qr6v0it99.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<ecfa260c0612141602y629e979g21235684660a0826@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0612141601i2577043ch20f341cf24ef7962@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0612141619u1066507dyd56494170a6cbab4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061215213013.GD13665@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<ecfa260c0612151337w46d9962fxf6c43b116a0415bb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20061216163630.GA15941@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- Zach wrote on Fri 15.Dec'06 at 16:37:55 -0500 -=

> I tried sending to the Paradise list and said my message bounced
> and was being held for the moderator to see. I couldn't find any
> instructions on how to subscribe to the paradise-workers list.

It's a ML on SF and you can find the forms on the projects page.
Follow the link(s).

> Ah I see. Could you send me the 2.4p3 source as a tarball?

I've put it up on http://paradise.netrek.org/, follow links.

> > Only with a fresh and windows-ready client, which doesn't exist.
> 
> What features would be critical for a Windows paradise client?
> How would it be different than Bill's Windows XP client for
> example?

It would support all Paradise features not existing in Bronco.
An incomplete list may be somewhere on the homepage, but includes
(as told on #netrek, too): more ships, more players, real warp,
suns, wormholes, moving planets, interstellar moving planets, more
weapons, resource bombing, home planet selection.
Oh, not to forget TQ (tournament queue!!!) and in-game observe
toggle.

> Ah I see. Anyone else besides us interested in this?

Kud from #netrek, and certainly others who don't dare to say. ;)

=- Andrew K. Bressen wrote on Fri 15.Dec'06 at 19:22:58 -0500 -=

> >> Can someone PLEASE send me a copy of the src if you have it
> >> or tell me where I can download it.
> 
> Rado S <rado at math.uni-hamburg.de> writes:
> > D'oh, I guess it's time for the wiki so I can update things. ;)
> 
> For dev stuff, there already is a wiki...

Right ... I'll see with Dave, James and others how/ where best to
put it. For now it's on the Paradise HP. I'll mess around with the
dev-wiki next week.

=- Zach wrote on Sat 16.Dec'06 at  2:03:59 -0500 -=

> On 12/16/06, Dave Ahn <ahn at orion.netrek.org> wrote:
> >
> > I thought the CVS archive was on paradise.sf.net, but it looks
> > like the code was never released there. No doubt the CVS repo
> > is sitting archived somewhere on one of the backups on the
> > server. Your best bet is to just download 2.4p1B source from
> > http://ftp.netrek.org.
> 
> Ok thanks. Maybe Rado could ask SF to restore the repo from a backup.

Dave is the project admin.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
Even if it seems insignificant, in fact EVERY effort counts
for a shared task, at least to show your deserving attitude.


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Sat Dec 16 16:32:34 2006
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 09:32:34 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] queue hosts
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0612141804v7490bfaem493e43269b8f0c3b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ecfa260c0612141804v7490bfaem493e43269b8f0c3b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20061216223234.GA3461@us.netrek.org>

Sure.  Patch welcome.  Retrofit the ip.c deferred lookup changes in
main.c so that they occur during findslot.c and queue.c.  See the
function ip_lookup().  Or do the host name lookup in the queue hosts
command, delaying the player who wants the information.  I'm inclined
toward the latter.

On the positive side, the change has cut the time to connect and login
from an IP address that has no reverse name available.  It is most
noticeable when comparing a connection to pickled against a connection
to continuum.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Sun Dec 17 16:06:18 2006
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 09:06:18 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek web pages
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0612152315i6bad0df7p19868ffe3a8dc540@mail.gmail.com>
References: <0qveksow82.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061205004408.GB4928@us.netrek.org>
	<0q3b7tovsp.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061207041225.GB6172@us.netrek.org>
	<0q4ps6nrlj.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061208230328.GA4068@orion.netrek.org>
	<ecfa260c0612152315i6bad0df7p19868ffe3a8dc540@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20061217220618.GA3867@us.netrek.org>

We already use trac, just haven't made it fully public yet.  Settling a
few minor issues with it.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Sun Dec 17 16:11:18 2006
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 09:11:18 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek web pages
In-Reply-To: <20061215144052.GE5283@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <0q4ps6nrlj.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061208230328.GA4068@orion.netrek.org>
	<0qvekllzs0.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061209210431.GA12975@orion.netrek.org>
	<0q7iwvlf9n.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061213204525.GH8327@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20061213222226.GC4848@us.netrek.org>
	<20061214153242.GF938@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20061214215446.GA4622@us.netrek.org>
	<20061215144052.GE5283@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20061217221118.GB3867@us.netrek.org>

On Fri, Dec 15, 2006 at 03:40:52PM +0100, Rado S wrote:
> Hum, producing 10KB+ patch data by attached complete history for
> single line change is overkill for my taste, even if it's kept off
> list.  Last time I asked in #netrek Bill didn't know how to turn this
> off, and I didn't notice anybody else's answer to this.

That patch data is essential for dealing with distributed repositories,
so I wouldn't want to do without it.  It is easy to trim, all we have to
do is add a tag.  Changes beyond the tag have smaller context.  By using
darcs we're inviting that extra data.  Don't worry about it.

> I know a bit about wiki'ing, though I'm still waiting for the
> "main" wiki release, not "just" the netrek-dev wiki.

This tells me you have no content to provide.  Holding off because of
the promise of something better doesn't seem right to me.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Sun Dec 17 16:29:16 2006
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 09:29:16 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] Paradise 2.99 client source?
In-Reply-To: <20061216163630.GA15941@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <ecfa260c0612141601i2577043ch20f341cf24ef7962@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0612141619u1066507dyd56494170a6cbab4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061215213013.GD13665@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<0qr6v0it99.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<ecfa260c0612141602y629e979g21235684660a0826@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0612141601i2577043ch20f341cf24ef7962@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0612141619u1066507dyd56494170a6cbab4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061215213013.GD13665@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<ecfa260c0612151337w46d9962fxf6c43b116a0415bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061216163630.GA15941@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20061217222916.GD3867@us.netrek.org>

On Sat, Dec 16, 2006 at 05:36:30PM +0100, Rado S wrote:
> It would support all Paradise features not existing in Bronco.
> An incomplete list may be somewhere on the homepage, but includes
> (as told on #netrek, too): more ships, more players, real warp,
> suns, wormholes, moving planets, interstellar moving planets, more
> weapons, resource bombing, home planet selection.
> Oh, not to forget TQ (tournament queue!!!) and in-game observe
> toggle.

For the record, I'm still interested in this code being merged into
Vanilla, as a sysdef option.  We've just completed a merge of the
Sturgeon code that way, last week, without significant problems yet.

I'm also pondering further changes to the initial login sequence by
clients (in a backward compatible manner of course) that would help us
to get away from different port numbers for different INL teams, or for
observers.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Sun Dec 17 21:16:37 2006
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 14:16:37 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] queue hosts
In-Reply-To: <20061216223234.GA3461@us.netrek.org>
References: <ecfa260c0612141804v7490bfaem493e43269b8f0c3b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061216223234.GA3461@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20061218031637.GL3867@us.netrek.org>

Change has been made, please test it Zach and let me know how it goes.
See the attached patch, or pull from my repository.

It has suboptimal side-effects ...

1.  the lookup is done twice, once on entry to the queue, and then again
on entry to the game, (an optimisation would be to cache the result and
use it on entry),

2.  the resolver process is defunct until exit from the queue, (an
optimisation would be to check for termination of the resolver while
waiting on queue).

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/
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From netrek at gmail.com  Sun Dec 17 22:12:59 2006
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 23:12:59 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] queue hosts
In-Reply-To: <20061218031637.GL3867@us.netrek.org>
References: <ecfa260c0612141804v7490bfaem493e43269b8f0c3b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061216223234.GA3461@us.netrek.org>
	<20061218031637.GL3867@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0612172012i6dfb229bobb3b91007ec95421@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/17/06, James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote:
> Change has been made, please test it Zach and let me know how it goes.
> See the attached patch, or pull from my repository.

Ok. Continuum only has 2 players logged in now. Next time I see a wait
queue I will test it.

> It has suboptimal side-effects ...
>
> 1.  the lookup is done twice, once on entry to the queue, and then again
> on entry to the game, (an optimisation would be to cache the result and
> use it on entry),
>
> 2.  the resolver process is defunct until exit from the queue, (an
> optimisation would be to check for termination of the resolver while
> waiting on queue).

Oh I see.

Zach


From netrek at gmail.com  Sun Dec 17 23:10:34 2006
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 00:10:34 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] COW page?
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0612172110h22cb3990lf1b40ec4458458ae@mail.gmail.com>

I can't find the old COW page.

http://cow.netrek.org just gives the same content as the www.netrek.org
and http://www.netrek.org/cow/ says:

403 Forbidden
You don't have permission to access /cow/ on this server.

Zach


From stephen.thorne at gmail.com  Mon Dec 18 01:08:29 2006
From: stephen.thorne at gmail.com (Stephen Thorne)
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 17:08:29 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] COW page?
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0612172110h22cb3990lf1b40ec4458458ae@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ecfa260c0612172110h22cb3990lf1b40ec4458458ae@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3e8ca5c80612172308k1eaa503r3e1208921a3c601@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/18/06, Zach <netrek at gmail.com> wrote:
> I can't find the old COW page.
>
> http://cow.netrek.org just gives the same content as the www.netrek.org
> and http://www.netrek.org/cow/ says:
>
> 403 Forbidden
> You don't have permission to access /cow/ on this server.

The content is not available on the server. If you feel like restoring
the content, please use

darcs get http://www.netrek.org/

add the content you feel is appropriate in the cow/ directory, (darcs
add) then record and send the patch.
-- 
Stephen Thorne

"Give me enough bandwidth and a place to sit and I will move the world."
  --Jonathan Lange


From stephen.thorne at gmail.com  Mon Dec 18 01:11:54 2006
From: stephen.thorne at gmail.com (Stephen Thorne)
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 17:11:54 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] queue hosts
In-Reply-To: <20061218031637.GL3867@us.netrek.org>
References: <ecfa260c0612141804v7490bfaem493e43269b8f0c3b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061216223234.GA3461@us.netrek.org>
	<20061218031637.GL3867@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <3e8ca5c80612172311o3b8a3362v2deb9f09665a362a@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/18/06, James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote:
> 1.  the lookup is done twice, once on entry to the queue, and then again
> on entry to the game, (an optimisation would be to cache the result and
> use it on entry),

Given a local caching DNS server, this could be considered an optimisation.

> 2.  the resolver process is defunct until exit from the queue, (an
> optimisation would be to check for termination of the resolver while
> waiting on queue).

This is unfortunate.

-- 
Stephen Thorne

"Give me enough bandwidth and a place to sit and I will move the world."
  --Jonathan Lange


From ahn at orion.netrek.org  Mon Dec 18 01:20:58 2006
From: ahn at orion.netrek.org (Dave Ahn)
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 02:20:58 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] COW page?
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0612172110h22cb3990lf1b40ec4458458ae@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ecfa260c0612172110h22cb3990lf1b40ec4458458ae@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20061218072058.GA14120@orion.netrek.org>

On Mon, Dec 18, 2006 at 12:10:34AM -0500, Zach wrote:
> I can't find the old COW page.
> 
> http://cow.netrek.org just gives the same content as the www.netrek.org
> and http://www.netrek.org/cow/ says:
> 
> 403 Forbidden
> You don't have permission to access /cow/ on this server.

s/www/genocide/

All the old pages off www.netrek.org should still be available at
genocide.netrek.org.  This includes the COW page.



From rado at math.uni-hamburg.de  Mon Dec 18 11:22:49 2006
From: rado at math.uni-hamburg.de (Rado S)
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 18:22:49 +0100
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek web pages
In-Reply-To: <20061217221118.GB3867@us.netrek.org>
References: <20061208230328.GA4068@orion.netrek.org>
	<0qvekllzs0.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061209210431.GA12975@orion.netrek.org>
	<0q7iwvlf9n.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061213204525.GH8327@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20061213222226.GC4848@us.netrek.org>
	<20061214153242.GF938@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20061214215446.GA4622@us.netrek.org>
	<20061215144052.GE5283@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20061217221118.GB3867@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20061218172249.GC24247@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- James Cameron wrote on Mon 18.Dec'06 at  9:11:18 +1100 -=

> That patch data is essential for dealing with distributed
> repositories, so I wouldn't want to do without it. It is easy to
> trim, all we have to do is add a tag. Changes beyond the tag
> have smaller context. By using darcs we're inviting that extra
> data. Don't worry about it.

I understand the necessities resulting from this system.
The only thing I didn't like was the volume for minimal changes,
not the system itself. Looking forward for more tags.

> > I know a bit about wiki'ing, though I'm still waiting for the
> > "main" wiki release, not "just" the netrek-dev wiki.
> 
> This tells me you have no content to provide. Holding off because
> of the promise of something better doesn't seem right to me.

You're mistaken then.
I don't blame Dave, but at the beginning he said "it will be there
soon". Assuming it would be only a few days I was willing to wait
those days before having to redo or transfer everything again.
I'm sorry the days became weeks (and more), but I was always
just waiting for the "next days". ;)

BTW, once the "main" wiki exists, will netrek-dev be merged,
moved, co-exist, or what?

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
Even if it seems insignificant, in fact EVERY effort counts
for a shared task, at least to show your deserving attitude.


From rado at math.uni-hamburg.de  Mon Dec 18 13:24:53 2006
From: rado at math.uni-hamburg.de (Rado S)
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 20:24:53 +0100
Subject: [netrek-dev] Paradise 2.99 client source?
In-Reply-To: <20061217222916.GD3867@us.netrek.org>
References: <ecfa260c0612141619u1066507dyd56494170a6cbab4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061215213013.GD13665@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<0qr6v0it99.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<ecfa260c0612141602y629e979g21235684660a0826@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0612141601i2577043ch20f341cf24ef7962@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0612141619u1066507dyd56494170a6cbab4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061215213013.GD13665@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<ecfa260c0612151337w46d9962fxf6c43b116a0415bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061216163630.GA15941@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20061217222916.GD3867@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20061218192453.GD24247@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- James Cameron wrote on Mon 18.Dec'06 at  9:29:16 +1100 -=

> > It would support all Paradise features not existing in Bronco.
> > {...}
> > Oh, not to forget TQ (tournament queue!!!) and in-game observe
> > toggle.
> 
> For the record, I'm still interested in this code being merged into
> Vanilla, as a sysdef option.  We've just completed a merge of the
> Sturgeon code that way, last week, without significant problems yet.

Glad to hear that, though I'm no code expert for either Bronco or
Paradise. I have to delay looking at this until later in 2007.
Maybe other Paradisers are competent enough to look at it sooner.


The treklib idea reminded me of the question: what is netrek?
Occasionally one or other client or feature was called "borgish".
	(incl. Paradise)
Can we get an official definition for "Bronco" Netrek?
	What's the focus of the game?
	Which features support it, which hurt?
Once this is set, ...
Quit complaining about desired new features?
Deny "blessed" status for anything beyond "fair" play?

Is this covered somewhere else (wiki?) already?

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
Even if it seems insignificant, in fact EVERY effort counts
for a shared task, at least to show your deserving attitude.


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Mon Dec 18 16:06:47 2006
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 09:06:47 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] Paradise 2.99 client source?
In-Reply-To: <20061218192453.GD24247@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20061215213013.GD13665@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<0qr6v0it99.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<ecfa260c0612141602y629e979g21235684660a0826@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0612141601i2577043ch20f341cf24ef7962@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0612141619u1066507dyd56494170a6cbab4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061215213013.GD13665@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<ecfa260c0612151337w46d9962fxf6c43b116a0415bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061216163630.GA15941@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20061217222916.GD3867@us.netrek.org>
	<20061218192453.GD24247@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20061218220647.GC4560@us.netrek.org>

On Mon, Dec 18, 2006 at 08:24:53PM +0100, Rado S wrote:
> The treklib idea reminded me of the question: what is netrek?
> Occasionally one or other client or feature was called "borgish".
> 	(incl. Paradise)
> Can we get an official definition for "Bronco" Netrek?
> 	What's the focus of the game?
> 	Which features support it, which hurt?
> Once this is set, ...
> Quit complaining about desired new features?
> Deny "blessed" status for anything beyond "fair" play?
> 
> Is this covered somewhere else (wiki?) already?

These are philosophical questions ... there is no authority, there is no
organisation, except that which we create.  Your questions might be
seeking such authority in a void.  The only real authority figure we
have is Carlos, for accepting keys into the blessed list, yet many
servers don't follow this list.

Unfairness in the context of a running game is destructive, and should
be avoided, but the implementation of this varies according to the
participant.  Some demand client blessing, with a refusal to admit the
technical uselessness of such a concept.  By my decision, the only
threshold of control is the Netrek protocol on TCP and UDP.  Development
will occur, new features may threaten old styles of play, but since the
data is available to all in the same form all they have to do is upgrade
their client to use it.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/
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From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to  Mon Dec 18 17:22:57 2006
From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen)
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 18:22:57 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek web pages
In-Reply-To: <20061215220722.GC7288@orion.netrek.org> (Dave Ahn's message of
	"Fri, 15 Dec 2006 17:07:22 -0500")
References: <0qveksow82.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061205004408.GB4928@us.netrek.org>
	<0q3b7tovsp.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061207041225.GB6172@us.netrek.org>
	<0q4ps6nrlj.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061208230328.GA4068@orion.netrek.org>
	<0qvekllzs0.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061209210431.GA12975@orion.netrek.org>
	<0q7iwvlf9n.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061215220722.GC7288@orion.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <0qslfchjqm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>


ahn at orion.netrek.org (Dave Ahn) writes:
> Anyway, you are right, the old site could be brought online quickly, and
> a new wiki would take a much longer time to fully populate.

Not just populate. If it were that simple, I would have thrown stuff
into the dev wiki. But I do not want to increase the inertia of a 
system that I don't think looks good enough to attract newbs. 

We should have a design that looks as good as the genocide content.
And people who know how to maintain the design, and have access to do so.

(Do we even have anyone who knows how to make a wiki look good?
And how long will it take them to do so? Remember, unless we have a 
whole seperate test wiki, we probably don't want the sucker live until
the design phase is done. And the designers may well need some admin
capabilities; server config and restart.)

We should know we have wiki software that will be stable and
well-supported for a long time. Five years, minimum; perferably
longer. To me, that says WikiMedia. Which had 15 updates last year,
uses MySQL as a base (400 open server bugs, which isn't bad but does
represent possible admin needs), and I would expect needs database
dumps and not just simple backups.

Do we have the sysadmin resources for that when a simple restore took months?

We'll also need admins to do lockouts and reverts of vandalism. 

This is a lot more sysadmin work than what we do now, even though it does
distribute the content authoring and maint. 

On the other hand, put the genocide site into darcs and we have the
design already done, no wiki-design-aware people who have to climb the
learning curve and then stick around for when we need them again,
simple backups, far fewer vandalism worries (an entire security layer
less to be concerned about), no new admin procedures, designers
probably won't need shell access or test environment, very few
software updates to worry about. We're up in weeks, not months.

And if we then want to do a wiki as a primary interface, we can take
our time, without having to be concerned about having something in
place to attract and support newbies, especially during this rather
significant mac client rollout period, which is already underway.

Doing sustainable design of internet systems is not a matter of
throwing a wiki on the wall and seeing if it sticks unless we
really truly can't get it done any other way.

  --akb



From ahn at orion.netrek.org  Mon Dec 18 22:39:50 2006
From: ahn at orion.netrek.org (Dave Ahn)
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 23:39:50 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek web pages
In-Reply-To: <0qslfchjqm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
References: <20061205004408.GB4928@us.netrek.org>
	<0q3b7tovsp.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061207041225.GB6172@us.netrek.org>
	<0q4ps6nrlj.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061208230328.GA4068@orion.netrek.org>
	<0qvekllzs0.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061209210431.GA12975@orion.netrek.org>
	<0q7iwvlf9n.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061215220722.GC7288@orion.netrek.org>
	<0qslfchjqm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
Message-ID: <20061219043950.GA17749@orion.netrek.org>

On Mon, Dec 18, 2006 at 06:22:57PM -0500, Andrew K. Bressen wrote:
> 
> We should have a design that looks as good as the genocide content.
> And people who know how to maintain the design, and have access to do so.

And who would this be?  And who would replace such persons when they
inevitably move on?

> Do we have the sysadmin resources for that when a simple restore took months?

I think if it were a simple restore, it wouldn't have taken months.

> We'll also need admins to do lockouts and reverts of vandalism. 

And again, who would this be?

> On the other hand, put the genocide site into darcs and we have the
> design already done, no wiki-design-aware people who have to climb the
> learning curve and then stick around for when we need them again,
> simple backups, far fewer vandalism worries (an entire security layer
> less to be concerned about), no new admin procedures, designers
> probably won't need shell access or test environment, very few
> software updates to worry about. We're up in weeks, not months.

I fail to see how using darcs to version control a custom PHP based web
site is any simpler or easier to maintain than any publicly available
content management system, whether that is a Wiki, Zope, or some other
software.  Ultimately, someone or several people must have shell access
and a test environment, maintain the software updates, and administrate
the web site.

> Doing sustainable design of internet systems is not a matter of
> throwing a wiki on the wall and seeing if it sticks unless we
> really truly can't get it done any other way.

I've never advocated "throwing a wiki on the wall" to see if it sticks.



From williamb at its.caltech.edu  Tue Dec 19 19:01:53 2006
From: williamb at its.caltech.edu (William Balcerski)
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 17:01:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [netrek-dev] Inability to communicate/work with Bob Tanner and the
 implications on client development
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0612191619260.21267@blinky>

I'm sorry to have to bring this to a public forum, but it's an issue that
affects the netrek community, and I'm at a loss of what to do.  In May
2006, I was router blocked from connecting to sage.real-time.com, the
machine that hosts both the metaserver and the continuum server, after
using multiple slots to register 2 ban votes to ban people on the
continuum server.  Since that time, both limitations on slots per IP and
minimum ban vote requirements (4 votes minimum) have been put in place.
Since that time I have apologized, to both Quozl and Tanner.  No response
from Tanner.  There was then a period, when my sturgeon server was between
hosts, in which I attempted to run the server from my local address.  Of
course, with the server not being able to communicate with the metaserver
due to the block, it limited the ability for people to play there.  Myself
and multiple people asked for the server to be able to be listed, again no
response.  In the interim, I have put in a ton of work on both client and
server development (I think it's fair to say I've been the most active
contributor to netrek development in the past year).  I've released a
client which is used by a significant portion of the playerbase.  I've
helped revive the dead status of netrek organized games by starting a new
mailing list (to replace the unused netrek at us.netrek.org list) that now
has close to 30 members, and has been responsible in great part for 3
successful clue games, the first such games in years.  Of course, a great
deal of "getting the word out" to the netrek community happens directly at
the places where the netrek games are played, and for the most part this
has been the continuum server.  I have used proxy software to get around
the router block (for the client at least) in order to reach the netrek
players, to advertise my client, to advertise clue games, and to provide
tech support for people who use my client.  Needless to say, I don't like
having to use a proxy, the connect is unreliable, the lag is too great to
play, and it wastes a great deal of time that is spent on actually
connecting to continuum.  But even with this large obstacle placed in the
way of what I consider progress in netrek, I said nothing.
Recents events with regards to metaserver policy (i.e. not listing all
servers) have led me to merge the COW UDP metaserver code into my client -
one of the features of the UDP metaserver is the ability to collect data
from multiple metaservers and display it simultaneously.  Needless to say,
actually testing this code is greatly inhibited by the fact that I could
only connect to 1 metaserver.
After 7 months, of multiple attempts to contact Bob Tanner, and many
contributions to netrek development, I finally manged to get my
development environment set up at a new, non-blocked IP.  Within a day I
had discovered 2 UDP metaserver bugs that I had not previously been able
to see due to not being able to reach both metaservers.  I fixed one, and
was in the process of debugging the other, when I found myself again IP
blocked from sage.real-time.com.  Again, with no word from Tanner.
So here I am, wondering what the hell should I do?  Bob Tanner owns much
of the netrek infrastructure, yet I cannot access it, and I cannot
properly debug a client due to his actions.  I'm seriously considering
removing metaserver.us.netrek.org from the UDP metaserver in my client
(would keep it for the TCP metaserver), and instead just use 1 metaserver.
Granted, I *could* make that 1 UDP metaserver be on the box Bob owns, but
giving how he has treated me, why would I want to have my client rely on
anything he controls?  I feel I can't trust him to do the right thing for
the community , or for the people who use my client.  I feel he's out of
touch with the community, evidenced by how the community has moved around
things under his control, as seen with the creation of an independent,
player-managed mailing list for netrek games, as well as a large number of
people who now use metaserver2.
What I want to know is, what would people do in my situation?  I don't
want to penalize the players by limiting for my inability to interact with
Bob Tanner, but it's getting to a point where it's having a serious effect
on both my ability and desire to work on a client.  Part of me worries
he'll ask for my client to be taken down from netrek.org as well, seeing
as that server is also hosted by real-time.  I just don't know what to do.
Maybe someone can help resolve this, I would appreciate it greatly.  I'm
frustrated to a point where I just can't hold it in any longer.
Bill


From carlos at jpl.nasa.gov  Tue Dec 19 19:58:01 2006
From: carlos at jpl.nasa.gov (Carlos Y. Villalpando)
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 17:58:01 -0800
Subject: [netrek-dev] Strange activity on metaserver.us.netrek.org
In-Reply-To: <20061206042734.GB8147@us.netrek.org>
References: <ecfa260c0612042051j2667608am1677e011e37e6872@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY128-F45E657C6871F2D42BE42DCBDE0@phx.gbl>
	<20061206042734.GB8147@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20061220015801.GA3860@carlos-desktop>


Back from holiday and finished slogging through my backlog.

Quoting James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org>:

> Carlos, metaserver2.us.netrek.org is probably contacting the servers
> back and counting players using a different algorithm to that which the
> UDP solicitation uses.

Diffs between your repository and what's on metaserver2 looks like it
was just a 1 line change.  Merged, as well as some compile warning
removal merges.  Policy patches not merged.

--Carlos V.




From quozl at us.netrek.org  Tue Dec 19 21:36:06 2006
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 14:36:06 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] Clue Game Quick Connect Application
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0612081429160.19976@blinky>
References: <BAY128-F9C8AC48BA1D9CABC46B84CBD30@phx.gbl>
	<Pine.GSO.4.58.0612081429160.19976@blinky>
Message-ID: <20061220033606.GC4280@us.netrek.org>

I've reviewed the Clue Game Quick Connect concept and I like it.  Go for
it.  I've also pondered placing this kinda stuff in a sort of login
universe, but haven't got it flying yet.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From xyzzy at speakeasy.org  Tue Dec 19 22:01:32 2006
From: xyzzy at speakeasy.org (Trent Piepho)
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 20:01:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [netrek-dev] Inability to communicate/work with Bob Tanner and
 the implications on client development
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0612191619260.21267@blinky>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0612191619260.21267@blinky>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0612191952090.18800@shell2.speakeasy.net>

On Tue, 19 Dec 2006, William Balcerski wrote:
> machine that hosts both the metaserver and the continuum server, after
> using multiple slots to register 2 ban votes to ban people on the
> continuum server.  Since that time, both limitations on slots per IP and

Maybe you shouldn't have done that?  Maybe you need to own up to your years
of abusive behavior and face the consequences.


From ahn at orion.netrek.org  Tue Dec 19 23:03:57 2006
From: ahn at orion.netrek.org (Dave Ahn)
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 00:03:57 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Inability to communicate/work with Bob Tanner and
	the implications on client development
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0612191619260.21267@blinky>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0612191619260.21267@blinky>
Message-ID: <20061220050357.GA20741@orion.netrek.org>

On Tue, Dec 19, 2006 at 05:01:53PM -0800, William Balcerski wrote:
> I'm sorry to have to bring this to a public forum, but it's an issue that
> affects the netrek community, and I'm at a loss of what to do.  In May

[...]

Bob is well respected and has been an invaluable supporter of the netrek
community for many years.  If he is blocking your access to one machine
which he owns and administrates on his network, then he must have valid
reasons whether you agree or disagree.  This one machine, though host to
metaserver.us. and continuum.us. which are popular services, does not
comprise "most of the netrek infrastructure."  There are quite a few of
us who collaboratively administrate all of the netrek infrastructure,
and I cannot recall a single instance in which undue influence was
exerted by any one person over the group.

Frankly, I'm getting the impression that this is boiling down to "he did
this, so I'm going to do that."  If you really intend your development
work to benefit the community, then your problem with Bob should not
bleed over the end-users of your software, since those end-users do not
share your problem.



From rado at math.uni-hamburg.de  Wed Dec 20 13:39:40 2006
From: rado at math.uni-hamburg.de (Rado S)
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 20:39:40 +0100
Subject: [netrek-dev] Paradise 2.99 client source?
In-Reply-To: <20061218220647.GC4560@us.netrek.org>
References: <0qr6v0it99.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<ecfa260c0612141602y629e979g21235684660a0826@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0612141601i2577043ch20f341cf24ef7962@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0612141619u1066507dyd56494170a6cbab4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061215213013.GD13665@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<ecfa260c0612151337w46d9962fxf6c43b116a0415bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061216163630.GA15941@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20061217222916.GD3867@us.netrek.org>
	<20061218192453.GD24247@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20061218220647.GC4560@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20061220193940.GD20337@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- James Cameron wrote on Tue 19.Dec'06 at  9:06:47 +1100 -=

> On Mon, Dec 18, 2006 at 08:24:53PM +0100, Rado S wrote:
> > The treklib idea reminded me of the question: what is netrek?
> > {...}
> > Is this covered somewhere else (wiki?) already?
> 
> These are philosophical questions ... there is no authority,
> there is no organisation, except that which we create. {...}
> By my decision, the only threshold of control is the Netrek
> protocol on TCP and UDP. Development will occur, new features
> may threaten old styles of play, but since the data is available
> to all in the same form all they have to do is upgrade their
> client to use it.

... and learn to use them or cope with it. I like this.
Unless there is opposition to this, I'd like to put it on the wiki
as reference.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
Even if it seems insignificant, in fact EVERY effort counts
for a shared task, at least to show your deserving attitude.


From rado at math.uni-hamburg.de  Wed Dec 20 13:55:26 2006
From: rado at math.uni-hamburg.de (Rado S)
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 20:55:26 +0100
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek web pages
In-Reply-To: <0qslfchjqm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
References: <20061205004408.GB4928@us.netrek.org>
	<0q3b7tovsp.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061207041225.GB6172@us.netrek.org>
	<0q4ps6nrlj.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061208230328.GA4068@orion.netrek.org>
	<0qvekllzs0.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061209210431.GA12975@orion.netrek.org>
	<0q7iwvlf9n.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061215220722.GC7288@orion.netrek.org>
	<0qslfchjqm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
Message-ID: <20061220195526.GE20337@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- Andrew K. Bressen wrote on Mon 18.Dec'06 at 18:22:57 -0500 -=

> But I do not want to increase the inertia of a system that I
> don't think looks good enough to attract newbs.

Then maybe you should explain what "good enough" means (for you).
Attraction should be done by functionality of the code and appeal
of the product itself rather than the website. Having some
screenshots on any website system should cover that.

> We should have a design that looks as good as the genocide content.

(hmm, maybe I should turn back on all the fancy/ flashy things to
see what you mean which I normally turn off to save my eyes ;)

> (Do we even have anyone who knows how to make a wiki look good?
> And how long will it take them to do so?

Wikis with stylesheets support exist, images can be placed as you
like, what else does it need?

> Remember, unless we have a whole seperate test wiki, we probably
> don't want the sucker live until the design phase is done.

Bah, learning by doing. ;)
Otherwise it will "never be ready for public".

> We'll also need admins to do lockouts and reverts of vandalism.
> This is a lot more sysadmin work than what we do now, even
> though it does distribute the content authoring and maint.

If the community can't sustain itself, then it need not be kept
alive artificially. Some degree of admin power delegation will
certainly exist for the pathological cases.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
Even if it seems insignificant, in fact EVERY effort counts
for a shared task, at least to show your deserving attitude.


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Wed Dec 20 16:02:32 2006
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 09:02:32 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] Paradise 2.99 client source?
In-Reply-To: <20061220193940.GD20337@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <ecfa260c0612141602y629e979g21235684660a0826@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0612141601i2577043ch20f341cf24ef7962@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0612141619u1066507dyd56494170a6cbab4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061215213013.GD13665@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<ecfa260c0612151337w46d9962fxf6c43b116a0415bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061216163630.GA15941@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20061217222916.GD3867@us.netrek.org>
	<20061218192453.GD24247@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20061218220647.GC4560@us.netrek.org>
	<20061220193940.GD20337@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20061220220231.GA5827@us.netrek.org>

On Wed, Dec 20, 2006 at 08:39:40PM +0100, Rado S wrote:
> ... and learn to use them or cope with it. I like this.
> Unless there is opposition to this, I'd like to put it on the wiki
> as reference.

No worries, go ahead.  I get to edit anything I said when it's on the
wiki ... on mail it's there and gone.  Feel free to link back to the
archives.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to  Wed Dec 20 18:30:25 2006
From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen)
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 19:30:25 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek web pages
In-Reply-To: <20061219043950.GA17749@orion.netrek.org> (Dave Ahn's message
	of "Mon, 18 Dec 2006 23:39:50 -0500")
References: <20061205004408.GB4928@us.netrek.org>
	<0q3b7tovsp.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061207041225.GB6172@us.netrek.org>
	<0q4ps6nrlj.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061208230328.GA4068@orion.netrek.org>
	<0qvekllzs0.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061209210431.GA12975@orion.netrek.org>
	<0q7iwvlf9n.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061215220722.GC7288@orion.netrek.org>
	<0qslfchjqm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061219043950.GA17749@orion.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <0qr6uuf5um.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>


> On Mon, Dec 18, 2006 at 06:22:57PM -0500, Andrew K. Bressen wrote:
>> We should have a design that looks as good as the genocide content.
>> And people who know how to maintain the design, and have access to do so.

ahn at orion.netrek.org (Dave Ahn) writes:
> And who would this be?  And who would replace such persons when they
> inevitably move on?

That's my point. Maintaining the HTML/PHP design is a more common
skill than maintaining a wiki design. Keeping those human slots filled
should be easier. 

>> Do we have the sysadmin resources for that when a simple 
>> restore took months?
>
> I think if it were a simple restore, it wouldn't have taken months.

Not to knock anyone, but if it wasn't a simple restore, then that may
well point to insufficient sysadmin resources. Restores should be
simple. If we can't manage decent backups for an HTML/PHP config,
could we deal with a complicated beast like a database-backed wiki
going toes-up?

>> We'll also need admins to do lockouts and reverts of vandalism. 
> And again, who would this be?

Again, exactly my point. Wikis are more complicated here, and thus
likely more work. 

See, either way we need to issue and revoke accounts/passwords 
for access and be able to roll back vandalized content. But, with 
everything in darcs, we only need to know and administer one
system for doing these tasks. 

With a wiki, we not only need wiki accounts for editors and wiki
editors to do rollbacks, we also still need an infrastructure to deal
with the non-web-accessible wiki design elements as well as any
non-wiki parts of the site; two sets of passwords/accounts and
backout procedures, not one. And if there's a seperate set of
database accounts needed for the wiki, that's a third set (albeit
a small one). 

> I fail to see how using darcs to version control a custom PHP based web
> site is any simpler or easier to maintain than any publicly available
> content management system, whether that is a Wiki, Zope, or some other
> software.  

It's simpler because it is fewer components.
Either way there's an httpd to configure.
Both will need version control, either for the html/php or for
the wiki config stuff. 
But with a wiki, there's also a wiki to configure and its database.

It's easier to maintain because it's fewer software updates,
more common skills,
and fewer admin interfaces.  

>... Ultimately, someone or several people must have shell access
> and a test environment, maintain the software updates, and administrate
> the web site.

And HTML/PHP/darcs needs fewer people with shell access,
  (I suspect pretty much everything could be done with only darcs access)
a far simpler test environment 
  (constantly refreshing a duplicate wiki db is probably not trivial; I could
  put up an entire duplicate HTML/PHP config on my desktop in under an 
  hour)
far less testing 
  (since the design is already done)
far fewer updates
  (HTML and PHP are mature and stable)
simpler administration using easy backups
  (no database dumps)
fewer parts to administrate
  (no database and no wiki to know how to use and manage)
more commonly available skills
  (HTML and PHP are common; no single wiki or CMS comes close to the
   amount of expertise out there already, and even someone who hasn't
   touched HTML or PHP in five years could just start using them again, 
   while someone five years rusty on a CMS will need to first learn
   everything that's changed about the CMS)

I'll reiterate here that I'm not inherently anti-wiki; I've edited at
least two dozen wikipedia articles. I'm happy we have a dev wiki;
it's the right tool for its job. 

But if the geno content was in darcs, I could have spent the over four
hours I've worked on these posts on editing content. And I would have
done some content editing back in september when I did a wget and a
darcs pull and found I couldn't touch the actual content.

Now, if there was a great looking wiki already set up and ready to go
(and with good backups) I'd be making far less noise; I'd probably
just go shove stuff in there, because it would be shortest path to
having a good site online. But we're not there, and I'll be rather
surprised if we're there six weeks from now. In the meantime, we've
got mac users downloading clients and very limited online info for
them.

  --akb



From rado at math.uni-hamburg.de  Thu Dec 21 09:21:06 2006
From: rado at math.uni-hamburg.de (Rado S)
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 16:21:06 +0100
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek web pages
In-Reply-To: <0qr6uuf5um.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
References: <20061207041225.GB6172@us.netrek.org>
	<0q4ps6nrlj.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061208230328.GA4068@orion.netrek.org>
	<0qvekllzs0.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061209210431.GA12975@orion.netrek.org>
	<0q7iwvlf9n.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061215220722.GC7288@orion.netrek.org>
	<0qslfchjqm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061219043950.GA17749@orion.netrek.org>
	<0qr6uuf5um.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
Message-ID: <20061221152106.GA6163@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- Andrew K. Bressen wrote on Wed 20.Dec'06 at 19:30:25 -0500 -=

> That's my point. Maintaining the HTML/PHP design is a more
> common skill than maintaining a wiki design. Keeping those human
> slots filled should be easier.

a) You're too much focused on design.
b) Once the wiki-framework is setup, there is no need for further
tech-knowledge beyond utilizing a web-browser for wiki-content
editors, which is what we primarily need. Not tech-admins.

> If we can't manage decent backups for an HTML/PHP config, could
> we deal with a complicated beast like a database-backed wiki
> going toes-up?

Why is the "beast" more complicated than PHP (and whatever else
might be attached behind it, like a DB, too ...)?

> >> We'll also need admins to do lockouts and reverts of vandalism. 
> > And again, who would this be?
> Again, exactly my point. Wikis are more complicated here, and
> thus likely more work.

Please explain in how far it is "more". And for whom.

> See, either way we need to issue and revoke accounts/passwords
> for access and be able to roll back vandalized content. But,
> with everything in darcs, we only need to know and administer
> one system for doing these tasks.

Single point of failure is what brought up the wiki-idea in the
first place. Again, for content-editing reasons, not technical.
You'd still need a single person who'd have to approve all darcs
commits.

> With a wiki, we not only need wiki accounts for editors and wiki
> editors to do rollbacks, we also still need an infrastructure to
> deal with the non-web-accessible wiki design elements as well as
> any non-wiki parts of the site; two sets of passwords/accounts
> and backout procedures, not one. And if there's a seperate set
> of database accounts needed for the wiki, that's a third set
> (albeit a small one).

Uh, everything "behind the scenes" I trust that Dave and friends
know their stuff well enough and will run/host it for the time being.
_That_ need not be our (community's) concern, because this wasn't
the reason for the current discussions/ changes.

> > I fail to see how using darcs to version control a custom PHP
> > based web site is any simpler or easier to maintain than any
> > publicly available content management system, whether that is
> > a Wiki, Zope, or some other software.
> 
> It's simpler because it is fewer components.
> Either way there's an httpd to configure.
> Both will need version control, either for the html/php or for
> the wiki config stuff. 
> But with a wiki, there's also a wiki to configure and its database.

Different wiki systems exist, I trust the tech-admins will find
what suits their requirements best.
Both PHP and wiki solution have to control config, layout/ design
and content separately, I don't see where PHP is "less" work than wiki.
Both need a framework done by experts for non-experts to use
simply to insert their content.

> It's easier to maintain because it's fewer software updates,
> more common skills, and fewer admin interfaces.

All content contributors should _not_ be required to have technical
skills with all used technical components. That's why wiki is
superior. Not all know PHP, even if many do.
Whatever people would have to learn about the PHP-solution, they
could likewise learn about the wiki-system. You don't have to know
much about it anyway, and learn by examples/ templates.

> simpler administration using easy backups
>   (no database dumps)
> fewer parts to administrate
>   (no database and no wiki to know how to use and manage)
> more commonly available skills
>   (HTML and PHP are common; no single wiki or CMS comes close to the
>    amount of expertise out there already, and even someone who hasn't
>    touched HTML or PHP in five years could just start using them again, 
>    while someone five years rusty on a CMS will need to first learn
>    everything that's changed about the CMS)

I guess you're talking here about the tech-admin side.
See above, problem is not tech-manpower, but content.

> But if the geno content was in darcs, I could have spent the
> over four hours I've worked on these posts on editing content.
> And I would have done some content editing back in september
> when I did a wget and a darcs pull and found I couldn't touch
> the actual content.

The same would have worked with a wiki. Edit/ write locally,
insert when accessible.

> having a good site online. But we're not there, and I'll be
> rather surprised if we're there six weeks from now. In the
> meantime, we've got mac users downloading clients and very
> limited online info for them.

D'oh, netrek has survived previous shortcommings of support, this
will not be the final blow.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
Even if it seems insignificant, in fact EVERY effort counts
for a shared task, at least to show your deserving attitude.


From netrek at gmail.com  Thu Dec 21 21:59:09 2006
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 22:59:09 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Which client?
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0612211959m2847d47eqdcea9285ab1b393e@mail.gmail.com>

Is this screenshot from the Ted Turner client?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/72/Netrek.png

Zach


From narcis at luky.nl  Fri Dec 22 16:14:57 2006
From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis)
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 23:14:57 +0100
Subject: [netrek-dev] Which client?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1166810404.29966.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>
References: <mailman.1.1166810404.29966.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <FBDC78F9-5470-436D-A58C-51A77626063B@luky.nl>

>
> Is this screenshot from the Ted Turner client?
>
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/72/Netrek.png
>

don't know but it  could be JTrek, judging the graphics and how the  
torps explode

Chris


From netrek at gmail.com  Fri Dec 22 17:02:18 2006
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 18:02:18 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Which client?
In-Reply-To: <FBDC78F9-5470-436D-A58C-51A77626063B@luky.nl>
References: <mailman.1.1166810404.29966.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>
	<FBDC78F9-5470-436D-A58C-51A77626063B@luky.nl>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0612221502i406206aen12b9d90196cf6e51@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/22/06, Narcis <narcis at luky.nl> wrote:
>
> don't know but it  could be JTrek, judging the graphics and how the
> torps explode

Hmm maybe. Does anyone know how to create such nice looking colorful pixmaps?
Preferably using an FOSS tool.

Zach


From netrek at gmail.com  Fri Dec 22 17:21:08 2006
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 18:21:08 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] URGENT: Continuum bots preventing valid player logins!
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0612221521k15e97b66tceb86dcfe75273bb@mail.gmail.com>

Since bots were started yesterday on continuum I can no longer login!

I've been trying several times and it keeps blocking out all the team
select windows even though there are only 8 or 9 players logged in the server.

I observed 3 other players trying to login and they also couldn't.

I have put up 3 screenshots of this:

http://www.club.cc.cmu.edu/~chaos/cont1.png
http://www.club.cc.cmu.edu/~chaos/cont2.png
http://www.club.cc.cmu.edu/~chaos/cont3.png

This occured about 10 minutes ago.

Regards,
Zach


From jjadeinc at hotmail.com  Sat Dec 23 21:56:20 2006
From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 19:56:20 -0800
Subject: [netrek-dev] Front end application for cambot
Message-ID: <BAY128-DAV13F2C6AA514655BF828B4DCBC30@phx.gbl>

Created a front end application for cambot.  For windows clients only.  You can play and record netrek games through a gui.  Needs to be installed in your netrek install directory, the installer explains this when you run it.  I will probably update the looks of it before adding it to the client installers.  Tested it from xp mod 4.4.0.2 to xp 2006 and it works great.

Beta version is available at:

http://www.playnetrek.org/netrek/cambot-helper.exe

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From quozl at us.netrek.org  Sun Dec 24 03:02:10 2006
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 20:02:10 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] Front end application for cambot
In-Reply-To: <BAY128-DAV13F2C6AA514655BF828B4DCBC30@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY128-DAV13F2C6AA514655BF828B4DCBC30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20061224090210.GB24611@us.netrek.org>

Fantastic.  Let us know how the feedback goes.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From netrek at gmail.com  Sun Dec 24 05:14:18 2006
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 06:14:18 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Front end application for cambot
In-Reply-To: <BAY128-DAV13F2C6AA514655BF828B4DCBC30@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY128-DAV13F2C6AA514655BF828B4DCBC30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0612240314x54715e6q22dc5829a48db62c@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/23/06, Joe Evango <jjadeinc at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Created a front end application for cambot.  For windows clients only.  You
> can play and record netrek games through a gui.  Needs to be installed in
> your netrek install directory, the installer explains this when you run it.
> I will probably update the looks of it before adding it to the client
> installers.  Tested it from xp mod 4.4.0.2 to xp 2006 and it works great.

Worked fine for me Joe. Good work.

Zach


From netrek at gmail.com  Sun Dec 24 05:16:39 2006
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 06:16:39 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] meta2 reporting INL virtual ports
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0612240316g6777a9adv19c298892096a150@mail.gmail.com>

Ever since the clue game on Wed. I still see {home,away}.inl.warped.us
in metaserver2.us.netrek.org. Haven't checked
metaserver.us.netrek.org. It was my understanding these entries would
be removed an hour or so after the clue game ended.

Zach


From williamb at its.caltech.edu  Sun Dec 24 18:34:15 2006
From: williamb at its.caltech.edu (William Balcerski)
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 16:34:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [netrek-dev] meta2 reporting INL virtual ports
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0612240316g6777a9adv19c298892096a150@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ecfa260c0612240316g6777a9adv19c298892096a150@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0612241632020.24133@sue>

There is an issue with UDP-reporting servers not being delisted I believe.
For the INL case, it was fixed in a darcs patch "drop inl solicit entries
older than ten minutes", however it is dependent on previous policy.c
patches so it may not have made it into metaserver2.  Without the patch, I
am powerless to delist the servers, removing the metaservers file and
shutting down server still has it listed.
Bill

On Sun, 24 Dec 2006, Zach wrote:

> Ever since the clue game on Wed. I still see {home,away}.inl.warped.us
> in metaserver2.us.netrek.org. Haven't checked
> metaserver.us.netrek.org. It was my understanding these entries would
> be removed an hour or so after the clue game ended.
>
> Zach
>
> _______________________________________________
> netrek-dev mailing list
> netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
> http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev
>
>


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Sun Dec 24 23:57:07 2006
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 16:57:07 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] meta2 reporting INL virtual ports
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0612241632020.24133@sue>
References: <ecfa260c0612240316g6777a9adv19c298892096a150@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.58.0612241632020.24133@sue>
Message-ID: <20061225055707.GA20346@us.netrek.org>

On Sun, Dec 24, 2006 at 04:34:15PM -0800, William Balcerski wrote:
> There is an issue with UDP-reporting servers not being delisted I believe.
> For the INL case, it was fixed in a darcs patch "drop inl solicit entries
> older than ten minutes", however it is dependent on previous policy.c
> patches so it may not have made it into metaserver2.

In fact, this is the only thing the policy.c patches actually do unless
the udp/ directory is populated by the metaserver owner.

(In every function in policy.c, if the udp/ directory is not present,
the function does nothing, bar one, which is policy_show() at the end of
the source file.  It contains a blockage to showing UDP-reported servers
if the information is older than 600 seconds.)

> Without the patch, I am powerless to delist the servers, removing the
> metaservers file and shutting down server still has it listed.

Indeed, that was the intention of the original UDP design several years
ago ... better to err on the side of listing an old server than provide
a means by which the listing could be destroyed by an attack of some
sort.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Wed Dec 27 17:44:19 2006
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 10:44:19 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-server-vanilla-2.12.0 released
Message-ID: <20061227234419.GA25841@us.netrek.org>

netrek-server-vanilla 2.12.0 was released.

http://quozl.linux.org.au/netrek/
12d5c2fb517596e57f2ebaf2cb02e4f8  netrek-server-vanilla-2.12.0.tar.gz

Packages for i386 Debian Etch also present.

Summary of changes:
- newbie and pre-t robot changes [Balcerski]
- sturgeon mode [Balcerski]
- full direction resolution feature packet [Balcerski]
- repair time estimate feature packet [Balcerski]
- INL style clue game fixes [Balcerski]
- per-slot transwarp permission [Balcerski]
- truth in server to metaserver reporting [Mondor, Cameron, Balcerski]
- support running server behind a NAT implementation [Mondor]
- defer reverse host name lookup [Cameron]
- server admin ignore, mute, and hide by ip [Cameron]
- per-ip ignore [Cameron]
- daemon restart feature [Cameron]
- server activity blog [Cameron]

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/
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From narcis at luky.nl  Thu Dec 28 12:50:43 2006
From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis)
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 19:50:43 +0100
Subject: [netrek-dev] MacTrek 1.1.0 Released
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1167328803.17234.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>
References: <mailman.1.1167328803.17234.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <16B56D4D-2529-47E5-8502-863FE75EEDFB@luky.nl>

Version 1.1.0 was sent to the sourceforge page. It usually takes some  
time for the Apple release pages to be updated. In this update you  
will find:

- Fixed bug in server deselect
- Fixed bug in message duplication
- Improved connection handling and shutdown
- Better separation in classes
- Improved dashboard behaviour
- Cleanup messages, playerlist etc when quiting
- Added RSA (Universal)
- Enabled manual entry of servers
- Added Classical Theme
- Updated the User Manual
- Placed source under SCM
- Added Credits pane (Pascal Defcom)
- Added online help, coup, quit and war declaration
- Added response to HOG call
- Included relocatable server
- Send Quit to server when ending game
- Fix server install problem
- Fix problem with dmg appearing on right half of screen
- Released Developer docs

Enjoy !

Chris

P.S. now would be a good time for anyone who manages a server to add  
the key.



From ahn at orion.netrek.org  Thu Dec 28 23:31:09 2006
From: ahn at orion.netrek.org (Dave Ahn)
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 00:31:09 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Which client?
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0612211959m2847d47eqdcea9285ab1b393e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ecfa260c0612211959m2847d47eqdcea9285ab1b393e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20061229053109.GA25888@orion.netrek.org>

On Thu, Dec 21, 2006 at 10:59:09PM -0500, Zach wrote:
> Is this screenshot from the Ted Turner client?
> 
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/72/Netrek.png

Yes, it's TedTurner, and that's me in the SB.



From netrek at gmail.com  Thu Dec 28 23:57:47 2006
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 00:57:47 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Which client?
In-Reply-To: <20061229053109.GA25888@orion.netrek.org>
References: <ecfa260c0612211959m2847d47eqdcea9285ab1b393e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061229053109.GA25888@orion.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0612282157n103f7cf3t7bc39c87720b9a64@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/29/06, Dave Ahn <ahn at orion.netrek.org> wrote:
>
> Yes, it's TedTurner, and that's me in the SB.

Heh, thanks Dave. I want to get TT working and take some more nice screenshots.

Zach


From netrek at gmail.com  Fri Dec 29 03:29:51 2006
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 04:29:51 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] eureka
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0612290129jd16fbecpa6ef6df2c19322f5@mail.gmail.com>

After much searching I have found the original netrek server source from 1990.

Will host it on my upcoming netrek site.

Zach


From tanner at real-time.com  Fri Dec 29 14:08:48 2006
From: tanner at real-time.com (Bob Tanner)
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 14:08:48 -0600
Subject: [netrek-dev] darcs patch: * Clean up of control file to make linda
	and lintian...
Message-ID: <1167422928.895273.2291.nullmailer@transmuter.real-time.com>

Fri Dec 29 14:02:40 CST 2006  Bob Tanner <tanner at real-time.com>
  *   * Clean up of control file to make linda and lintian happy
    * Upgrade to Standards-Version: 3.7.2
    * Small change to extended description
    * Conversion of rules to cdbs
    * The common licenses (GPL, BSD, Artistic, etc) have been moved from
    * /usr/doc/copyright to 
      /usr/share/common-licenses. Copyright files should be updated
    * trekon uses #!/bin/csh. The Debian policy for scripts explicitly warns
    * against using csh 
      and tcsh as scripting languages.
    * Renamed init to netrek-server-vanilla.init to work with cdbs
    * Added debian/manpages and created netrekd.1, Debian policy requires all
    * binaries to have 
      a manpage.
    * setpath is a shellscript missing magic cookie, added #!/bin/sh to comply
    * with Debian policy
    * The postrm de-registers an /etc/init.d script which has not been registered
    * in the postinst 
      script before. Comments in the postinst ask for a debconf configuration
      option. Commenting out the de-register to make lintian happy.
    * Added symlink between netrekd and newstartd
  
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From tanner at real-time.com  Fri Dec 29 14:10:02 2006
From: tanner at real-time.com (Bob Tanner)
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 14:10:02 -0600
Subject: [netrek-dev] Which client?
References: <ecfa260c0612211959m2847d47eqdcea9285ab1b393e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061229053109.GA25888@orion.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <en3smr$v29$1@sea.gmane.org>

Dave Ahn wrote:

>> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/72/Netrek.png
> 
> Yes, it's TedTurner, and that's me in the SB.

Wow, Dave you are old! :-P

-- 
Bob Tanner <tanner at real-time.com>          | Phone : (952)943-8700
http://www.real-time.com, Minnesota, Linux | Fax   : (952)943-8500
Key fingerprint = AB15 0BDF BCDE 4369 5B42  1973 7CF1 A709 2CC1 B288



From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Wed Dec 27 12:41:18 2006
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 18:41:18 -0000
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <mailman.1.1169654832.2099.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>

Academy Awards? 
http://movies.msn.com/movies/oscars2007/?icid=ncoscartagline1



From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Wed Dec 27 12:41:18 2006
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 18:41:18 -0000
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <mailman.4.1174304507.2099.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>

butt-torpers. I haven't played for too long, but hasn't such a
feature been implemented already somewhere (more fuel cost when
fired in certain angle range, maybe even related to the angle up
to a limit like 90deg +- from butt and current speed [run-aways])?
(or was that (just) in Paradise? No idea really, but sounds deja vu.)

I like the "can't carry" limitation, since newbies don't care for
this until they can control their ship somewhat, but it will
definitely hurt oldies.
Any more such ideas which only hurt oldies, because newbies don't
know/ care about it yet?
Maybe cloak (as long as they can't carry)?

> No way on the damage thing.

No, enemy info beyond positions known to team are taboo, even to
newbies.

> As for army counts on all planets, if you think it's a helpful
> feature to newbies, then how about just give it to everyone?

I'd prefer this one, too, even against oldies complaining that
their elite info-gathering skills are useless now.
Since you can see whether it's >4 (bombable or not) anyway, this
being already what matters most, how many exactly is just
secondary, but a nice to have.
Oh yes, if not all are picked, you need to know what it was before
to know how many have been picked (or picked at all?) ... well...
again something that rarely needs asked for special info-gathering
skills.

--=20
=A9 Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Wed Dec 27 12:41:18 2006
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 18:41:18 -0000
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <mailman.5.1175114822.2099.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>

> Yes, please. Unfortunately, I no longer have the free time at
> work I used to have, and don't have time to follow a thread that
> may meander into half a dozen different topics. If one is going
> to thread drift, change the subject line.

... you both are right, and I apologize, normally I pay attention to
this. I'm sorry, I haven't participated in long threads recently.

----- End forwarded message -----
----- Forwarded message from "Carlos Y. Villalpando" <carlos at jpl.nasa.gov=
> -----

> Drat. I missed out on the conversation because I ignored it
> after it turned into an intellectual property rant. Was there a
> specific issue of borgishness brought up?

No, but such a thing is difficult to verify with closed source anyway.

> But basically, I continue to accept P2K because at the
> beginning, he established trust, and even complied with a couple
> of requests to remove features. {...} If I don't find any
> { historical borg hot buttons }, I don't remove his key.
>=20
> I depend on the community to decide amongst itself to say "THIS
> IS BORGISH". I am not the judge of new features, {...}
> If you have a problem, post it here, or on r.g.n. and gain
> support for your position.

a) As above: closed source, can't verify.

b) You say you trust him, therefore the key remains. When you
say it's not up to you, then why does your trust play a role?
And if somebody says "borg", what happens then? How much/ what
kind of support is needed?
(From discussions so far I gathered that there already might be
some features some people consider borg.)

c) There is no definitive "official" standard to compare with.
It's all more or less up to subjective taste and opinion leaders.

When you are not the judge, who _is_ the judge then? If you say
community, who is that? 50% of all players (how many are there,
how to reach all for a poll)? Or just those running the
infra-structure?
Ultimately it's back to you, whatever anybody else might say:
you decide to who you listen. But to _who_ do you listen?
Do others trust him the same way (others might not trust closed
source as much as you do)?

It doesn't help that _some_ oldies complain about some features
while others don't mind those but complain about others, and in
the end there are grudges on several sides.
And then you say "the community has decided", where nobody knows
who or what exactly this is.

We need some "official" standard for Netrek (and Paradise ;) to
definitely decide borgishness, and a _public_ way to verify it.
Can we have _both_?

(And a reliable system to allow servers to allow selected borgish
features, and clients only to work borgish there, and not
anywhere else. I heard FeaturePackets exist for that.)

----- End forwarded message -----

I've realized just these days that the client coders produce the
binaries themselves. This reminds me of too few binaries for
Paradise: long ago I've seen help page examples for "get a client"
where it listed ~20(?) binaries for Paradise alone. I'd like to
have this platform support back, given that all those platforms
still exist. ;)

Therefore I have this suggestion:

I've heard SF has a compile farm, which I believed to be a system
where one could compile on (almost) all platforms to provide
binaries.
If that's true and works easily enough, you could assign some
"trusted" people to take the keys and the source, and then produce
official blessed binaries for all possible platforms.
(unless you, Carlos, want to do it all yourself ;)

This additional instance would provide a) more platform support and
b) some more trust that the binaries are verifyable not to be borg,
i.e. you don't have to trust any coder alone, but they are all
checked by another pair of eyes (source is separated from binary).
How do you like that?

--=20
=A9 Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Wed Dec 27 12:41:18 2006
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 18:41:18 -0000
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <mailman.6.1175166057.2099.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>

up_id=3D1&atid=3D200001

------ QUOTE BEGIN ------
We hope to resurrect it in a more complete form at some point in
the future, but for now, it's disabled.
------- QUOTE END -------

So... heads up for news on this front.

--=20
=A9 Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Wed Dec 27 12:41:18 2006
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 18:41:18 -0000
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <mailman.7.1175558070.2099.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>

really make an effort to bring new players into the fold.  Zack identified
many of the problems (lack of good graphics, sound, better help, etc.)  I've
seen some discussion about platforms too, and this one is the most
mystifying to me as its answer seems, to me, entirely obvious.

If you are going after players, your first target must be Windows, because
that's where the players are.  At a minimum, you must make a client which
fully supports this platform.  A good way to do this would be to write it in
C# against .NET and Mono, using the SDL and OpenGL wrappers as Mono is cross
platform.  Targeting the single digit markets is truly a waste of effort,
assuming your goal is to bring in more players.  The only reason I would
even bother to support Linux at all is to ensure that your experience
players who currently use that system can still play on the new system.

Another thing I would suggest, having both been through the code base and
watching the evolution of games since Netrek last had a makeover, would be
to rethink the whole client architecture/UI as well as the client/server
interaction.  Borgs being a big issue, I'd put special effort into securing
the network protocol, perhaps even having the server upload code required to
play during the game (a dynamic client updating system designed to obstruct
run-time debugging, or at least make it very difficult.)  Stuff like this is
fairly straightforward to do with C#.

Another option is to consider reimagining the game for the console market,
a-la the Xbox 360 and Xbox Live.  I've often felt that this is an excellent
way to expose new players to this wonderful game, but the user interface
currently heavily relies on the keyboard.  Substantial thought would have to
go into an effort like this, but it could pay off big in exposure.

Anyhow, those are my recent ideas.  I don't want to in any way suggest that
Netrek is fundamentally flawed - it's not - but it does need to be brought
into the 21st century, and that path won't be easy because the game has been
essentially left fallow for about 15 years.

- Cliff

-----Original Message-----
From: netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org
[mailto:netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org] On Behalf Of Andrew K. Bressen
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 4:05 PM
To: netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] technical pre-reqs to marketing efforts (Paradise
as entry-level)


Rado S <regrado at web.de> writes:
>> { Paradise } But I think it is foolish to put any effort into it
>> until there are clients for something besides unix.
>
> I guess you mean primarily windows, and there you're right,
> such a beast would definitely help. (Paradise has run on
> non-unix/-windows systems, I even read about mac).

Macs have Unix underneath things these days, which is why the TT port
to OS X was possible. But... to your average mac user, it looks
terrible. They are used to things that are written against the mac
toolkits, not the unix toolkits, and the mac toolkits have a familiar
and consistent "look and feel" which is a main reason for people
buying macs in the first place.  And they look a lot nicer besides.

This is not to say that we wouldn't get any players, but we'd
be targeting a platform that has maybe a 10% market share to 
start with, and many of whose players would take one look at
the client and bail. In the absence of a windows client, 
I can't see focusing effort there; it's fighting with two hands tied
behind our backs. 


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