From joe at playnetrek.org Sun Jul 1 01:21:20 2007 From: joe at playnetrek.org (Joe Evango) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 23:21:20 -0700 Subject: [netrek-dev] Missing posts on the dev list? References: <20070630155249.GD3128@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070701012254.GB5503@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: Unsure if this is an isolated incident but I appear to be missing the original post for this subject on the dev list. I also appear to be missing the original post with the subject line "Re: [netrek-dev] "rado to -dev translation gateway" for joe + Quozl". The only thing I am seeing in regards to this subject is one response from RadoS dated today. There were some issues several weeks back with posts coming through on the dev list. Not sure if this is related. Could be an issue on my end. I don't have any filtering turned on for this account. Anyone else seeing this problem? -Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Cameron" To: "Netrek Development Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 6:22 PM Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] netrek.org observations > On Sat, Jun 30, 2007 at 05:52:49PM +0200, Rado S wrote: >> "It costs no money to play, there are no ads, and it's open source." >> and right next to it "Paradise 2000", that's ... contradictory. > > Agreed. netrek.org maintainers please either remove the term open > source or remove Paradise 2000. Or balance it with a footnote "except > Paradise 2000". Or use "mostly" as a qualifier. > >> http://www.netrek.org/servers/machines.php >> [...] >> (2-3 more servers might come later when ready) > > netrek.org maintainers please avoid statements about futures unless they > are backed by substantial evidence. People mistrust web sites that > claim things that do not happen, and as content maintainers you cannot > ensure this predicted event happens. > >> - Ad TedTurner: I read Dave has added some patches recently to >> correct errors with torps, but I have no idea where he stored the >> code now... maybe you can clarify this with him to correct the link >> and propagate it to us. > > Please do your own research, Rado. Unreleased code is not worth the > paper it isn't printed on. > > -- > James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > netrek-dev mailing list > netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev > From netrek at gmail.com Sun Jul 1 04:26:40 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 05:26:40 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Missing posts on the dev list? In-Reply-To: References: <20070630155249.GD3128@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070701012254.GB5503@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: I think Rado just changed the Subject line when he replied. Zach On 7/1/07, Joe Evango wrote: > Unsure if this is an isolated incident but I appear to be missing the > original post for this subject on the dev list. > > > > I also appear to be missing the original post with the subject line "Re: > [netrek-dev] "rado to -dev translation gateway" for joe + Quozl". The only > thing I am seeing in regards to this subject is one response from RadoS > dated today. > > > > There were some issues several weeks back with posts coming through on the > dev list. Not sure if this is related. Could be an issue on my end. > > > > I don't have any filtering turned on for this account. Anyone else seeing > this problem? > > > > -Joe > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Cameron" > To: "Netrek Development Mailing List" > Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 6:22 PM > Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] netrek.org observations > > > > On Sat, Jun 30, 2007 at 05:52:49PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > >> "It costs no money to play, there are no ads, and it's open source." > >> and right next to it "Paradise 2000", that's ... contradictory. > > > > Agreed. netrek.org maintainers please either remove the term open > > source or remove Paradise 2000. Or balance it with a footnote "except > > Paradise 2000". Or use "mostly" as a qualifier. > > > >> http://www.netrek.org/servers/machines.php > >> [...] > >> (2-3 more servers might come later when ready) > > > > netrek.org maintainers please avoid statements about futures unless they > > are backed by substantial evidence. People mistrust web sites that > > claim things that do not happen, and as content maintainers you cannot > > ensure this predicted event happens. > > > >> - Ad TedTurner: I read Dave has added some patches recently to > >> correct errors with torps, but I have no idea where he stored the > >> code now... maybe you can clarify this with him to correct the link > >> and propagate it to us. > > > > Please do your own research, Rado. Unreleased code is not worth the > > paper it isn't printed on. > > > > -- > > James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > netrek-dev mailing list > > netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > > http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev > > > > > _______________________________________________ > netrek-dev mailing list > netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev > From quozl at us.netrek.org Sun Jul 1 04:59:53 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 19:59:53 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] [michael@life-sucks.org: More Full Updates] In-Reply-To: References: <20070630162315.GZ25316@mail.beanhq.com> <20070701012849.GC5503@us.netrek.org> <45ab86180706302038h65bf9d9ai616fdbe470af3bbd@mail.gmail.com> <20070701041146.GA8481@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070701095953.GA13598@us.netrek.org> On Sun, Jul 01, 2007 at 12:31:54AM -0400, Zach wrote: > On 7/1/07, James Cameron wrote: > > > > Which client is this? What mode is it operating in? TCP, UDP, short > > packets, or normal packets? If in UDP mode, does it also occur in TCP > > mode? > > > > Sounds like normal packet loss. Avoid lossy connections, and turn on > > enforced state. > > Have seen it with Netrek 1999, Netrek XP Mod. UDP, short packets. No > I've only seen it in UDP mode, that's cause I rarely play in TCP. > How do you enable enforced state? Either set udpClientSend to 2 or 3 in your rc file, or use the UDP option menu to set it. The default value is 1. # udpClientSend: 0 = TCP only 1 = simple UDP 2 = enforced UDP (state only) # 3 = enforced UDP (state & weap) udpClientSend: 3 Use this in circumstances where you observe packet loss. However, on reviewing the code, it will have no effect on the symptoms of remnant on-screen torps nor the failure of the client to transition from flight to team selection window. It does not enforce either. Sorry about that, I was wrong. The transition from flight to team selection window is the more important of the two problems. The change to POUTFIT status should be sent via TCP. But the packet loss presumably affects the TCP stream as well, and it falters. Or the server isn't sending the status change. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From narcis at luky.nl Sun Jul 1 07:23:54 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 14:23:54 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-dev Digest, Vol 28, Issue 15 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7521AF1A-948A-4782-8F06-7D6CF27FC59F@luky.nl> On 29 Jun 2007, at 23:32, Zach wrote: > Chris is your client written in C or Java? I thought it was based on > JTrek which is Java but the code looks like C below. I took some of the OO ideas from JTrek, but it's all objective-C. note the [ ] indicating object access, it's typical for Obj-C, java would be String message = new String; and C something like char *message = (char*) malloc (??); It's all the same, just in a different language with pro's and con's (though i think mactrek will profit from Leopard's garbage collection....) >> >> message = [NSMutableString >> stringWithFormat:@"%c%c%c%c%c%c%c%c%c%c%c%c%c%c%c", >> (char)((macro_flag ? 1 : 0) << 5 | distress_type), >> (char)(fuel_percentage | 0x80), From regrado at web.de Sun Jul 1 08:04:20 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 15:04:20 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek.org observations In-Reply-To: <20070701012254.GB5503@us.netrek.org> References: <20070630155249.GD3128@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070701012254.GB5503@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070701130420.GA5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- James Cameron wrote on Sun 1.Jul'07 at 11:22:54 +1000 -= > > http://www.netrek.org/servers/machines.php > > [...] > > (2-3 more servers might come later when ready) > > netrek.org maintainers please avoid statements about futures > unless they are backed by substantial evidence. () was meant as internal note to admin, not to be put on-line, relax. > > - Ad TedTurner: I read Dave has added some patches recently to > > correct errors with torps, but I have no idea where he stored > > the code now... maybe you can clarify this with him to correct > > the link and propagate it to us. > > Please do your own research, Rado. Unreleased code is not worth > the paper it isn't printed on. Again, relax. What more research is there than Dave mentioning the patch himself? If you had read what Andrew was writing, you'd have noticed that he's more in touch with Dave than at least I am. It's more likely/faster for him to get info from Dave directly. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Sun Jul 1 09:23:51 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 16:23:51 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] Missing posts on the dev list? In-Reply-To: References: <20070630155249.GD3128@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070701012254.GB5503@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070701142351.GB5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- Zach wrote on Sun 1.Jul'07 at 5:26:40 -0400 -= > I think Rado just changed the Subject line when he replied. I didn't do it for my responses, and the missing msgs were the thread starters. Since I and others received the posts via the list, must be something on your side, Joe. > > Anyone else seeing this problem? > > > > -Joe Yes, once some long time ago I experienced the same, but maybe I just missed an old thread starter before I joined the list. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Sun Jul 1 09:41:45 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 16:41:45 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: Dave + Bob In-Reply-To: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070701144145.GC5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Bob, Dave, thank you 2 for all your work in general (incl. responding to this request), but especially in the recent past with the list. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Sun Jul 1 09:50:35 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 16:50:35 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] Joe's and Andrew's plans? Message-ID: <20070701145035.GD5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Moin Joe + Andrew, ----- Forwarded message from Dave Ahn ----- > The wiki path is complementary to what Andrew and Joe are doing, > and I'll open it up eventually. ----- End forwarded message ----- Now ... you've lost me there. What exactly are you 2 up to, when it is apparently not only about the netrek.org relaunch (which was once meant to be run via wiki)? When will we see it? What can we do to help you? -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Sun Jul 1 10:22:20 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 17:22:20 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] client control Message-ID: <20070701152220.GE5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> ----- Forwarded message from James Cameron ----- > Unfairness in the context of a running game is destructive, and > should be avoided, but the implementation of this varies according > to the participant. Some demand client blessing, with a refusal to > admit the technical uselessness of such a concept. There is no 100% safe system easily implemented, but that's not even needed: die hard cheaters aren't stoppable, but making it too easy for everyone is like inviting such bad attitude as habit eventually. Raising the threshold just a little makes it harder for simpletons to just change a few simple things to give them an advantage and reduces the number of people capable of cheating, just because it isn't as easily possible anymore. They'd have to put some effort into it they aren't willing to spend in big numbers. > By my decision, the only threshold of control is the Netrek > protocol on TCP and UDP. I once said I like this simple limitation, but seeing my quoted example of phaser targeting aids this is too little, because this can't be controlled by the protocol, yet it is against the "fair game" concept where the core action is supposed to be performed by the human. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Sun Jul 1 10:24:40 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 17:24:40 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] creating netrek authority Message-ID: <20070701152440.GF5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> ----- Forwarded message from James Cameron ----- > These are philosophical questions ... there is no authority, there > is no organisation, except that which we create. Then why not create it? > Your questions might be seeking such authority in a void. The only > real authority figure we have is Carlos, for accepting keys into > the blessed list, yet many servers don't follow this list. Something that could be changed. Not interested? -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Sun Jul 1 10:33:47 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 17:33:47 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] changing netrek learning curve + game style, good borg vs. bad borg Message-ID: <20070701153346.GG5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> I'm not sure whether I responded to that before, so I play safe and do it now (again) ----- Forwarded message from "mark at mark.mielke.cc" ----- > Subject: [netrek-dev] What is a borg? > > I think the word borg, in the sense of 'info-borg', is thrown > around as a justification for elitism. As far as I am concerned, a > truly great Netrek player will not benefit from the majority of > the 'info-borg' characteristics that have been widely debated in > the past. This then leads me to become convinced that the fear is > that a not-so-great player may possibly compete. I think this > elitism is has been a reason why Netrek fails to attract large > audiences. The intimidation alone has been enough to prevent new > players from ever feeling welcomed. That's exactly my position, too, those are "good borgs". They might change the game a bit, but better have a slightly changed game with more players than the best balanced few like to play. > Some things are definately borg. Computer targetting aids. Fully > automated actions (shield up, auto det, tractor/repress). Those are "bad borgs", producing more than is provided by the server. That why client control is needed, even though it might be not perfect, but it keeps the majority in check (once we have masses again). -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Sun Jul 1 10:49:26 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 17:49:26 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] how the "director" idea started Message-ID: <20070701154925.GH5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> ----- Forwarded message from James Cameron ----- > Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 10:36:41 +1000 > Subject: [netrek-dev] new infra-structure against borg > > On Fri, Apr 06, 2007 at 03:10:20PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > > The purpose of all my asking is to find out whether such a role is > > - wanted+supported+enforced/ controlled by infra-structure owners, > > - and how it can be installed. > > So you're asking me my thoughts on a netrek governer? > > Wanted: yes. > > Supported: what does that mean? If it means I'll agree with > everything the governer says, no. If it means I'll do whatever the > governer says, no. If it means I'll help manage infrastructure the > governer needs, yes. > > Enforced: what does that mean? If it means I'll block an IP > address just because the governer says, no. I'd have to understand > the reasons and accept them. If it means I won't try to circumvent > a block placed on me by a governer, no. > > > What shall it be? > > An interesting question. But you can't rely on my answer alone, I > do not represent anyone but myself, and then only half the time. > > -- > James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ ----- End forwarded message ----- Wow, I forgot about this answer, and now that I found it again, I wonder why you reacted the way you did when I recently layed down detailed and condensed the answers to your questions what a "director" is supposed to do and what support he needs by the owners, and when I addressed those you didn't want to speak for (the owners or other inofficial authorities). What kind of reaction to this response of yours have you expected? -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From joe at playnetrek.org Sun Jul 1 12:11:47 2007 From: joe at playnetrek.org (Joe Evango) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 10:11:47 -0700 Subject: [netrek-dev] Missing posts on the dev list? References: <20070630155249.GD3128@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de><20070701012254.GB5503@us.netrek.org> <20070701142351.GB5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: Strange. I will need to read through the archives to get caught up on these threads. Thanks, Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rado S" To: Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 7:23 AM Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] Missing posts on the dev list? =- Zach wrote on Sun 1.Jul'07 at 5:26:40 -0400 -= > I think Rado just changed the Subject line when he replied. I didn't do it for my responses, and the missing msgs were the thread starters. Since I and others received the posts via the list, must be something on your side, Joe. > > Anyone else seeing this problem? > > > > -Joe Yes, once some long time ago I experienced the same, but maybe I just missed an old thread starter before I joined the list. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. _______________________________________________ netrek-dev mailing list netrek-dev at us.netrek.org http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev From jrd at gerdesas.com Sun Jul 1 13:43:48 2007 From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 13:43:48 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] Missing posts on the dev list? In-Reply-To: References: <20070701142351.GB5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070701184348.GC25316@mail.beanhq.com> On Sun, Jul 01, 2007 at 10:11:47AM -0700, Joe Evango wrote: > Strange. I will need to read through the archives to get caught up on these > threads. It's obvious to me that Joe is not that only one missing posts from the list. Recent posts to the list quote messages that I never received. I have made casual comments in the past regarding this issue. It's a highly sporadic problem from what I can see. I can also assure you that it is not a problem on my end; while I do /heavy/ spam filtering I do not toss any of it out, it gets saved into a Spamdir for me to review later. I have seen no recent -dev posts in there. Frankly, due to a heavy work load (58 hours billable last week) I do not have the time nor motivation to go through the archive to see what I may have missed. I maintain my own personal archive, so if I ever /do/ have time I will generate a list of those items I missed and submit it to anyone that is interested in trying to figure out what's going on. John -- "I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones." As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to be put through to an engineer. "My other computer is your windows box." Ralf Hildebrandt trying to play sturgeon while it's under attack is apparently not fun. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070701/dbb2fea1/attachment.pgp From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to Sun Jul 1 13:50:13 2007 From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 14:50:13 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek.org observations In-Reply-To: <20070701130420.GA5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> (Rado S.'s message of "Sun, 1 Jul 2007 15:04:20 +0200") References: <20070630155249.GD3128@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070701012254.GB5503@us.netrek.org> <20070701130420.GA5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <0qtzsoj6vu.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Rado S writes: > If you had read what Andrew was writing, you'd have noticed that > he's more in touch with Dave than at least I am. > It's more likely/faster for him to get info from Dave directly. I send him email, he replies when he has time. You could do the same. But my guess is that when he has a new release ready to go, he'll tell us, and until then it's best not to bother him; any interrupt makes it less likely he'll have time for wiki stuff. From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to Sun Jul 1 14:30:14 2007 From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 15:30:14 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] client control In-Reply-To: <20070701152220.GE5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> (Rado S.'s message of "Sun, 1 Jul 2007 17:22:20 +0200") References: <20070701152220.GE5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <0qfy47kjll.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Rado: > I once said I like this simple limitation, but seeing my quoted > example of phaser targeting aids this is too little, because this > can't be controlled by the protocol, yet it is against the "fair > game" concept where the core action is supposed to be performed by > the human. If you feel the level of security isn't high enough, feel free to suggest protocol architecture modifications and provide the programmers to implement them. And by this, I mean specific suggestions along the lines of "a det circle feature packet should contain these bytes encrypted in this manner". Just saying "we're not secure enough" when we don't even have the resources to fix significant outstanding metaserver bugs is not constructive. From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to Sun Jul 1 14:29:07 2007 From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 15:29:07 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] "rado to -dev translation gateway" for joe + Quozl In-Reply-To: <20070630155238.GC3128@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> (Rado S.'s message of "Sat, 30 Jun 2007 17:52:39 +0200") References: <20070619202621.GK21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0q645hstiy.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070630155238.GC3128@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <0qhconkjng.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Rado S writes: > But with respect to the "consensus", we have this one: > "We've got clients, we've got servers, we've got a network protocol > with RSA client verification, ..." > is then obsolete, if I understood the "consensus" right? Not in the least. > Now... without RSA (or any replacement) to make such things harder, > _anyone_ without even basic 2-3y cs experience could hack that. > It's not about making things 100% safe, but making it harder for the > clueless spoilsports. If they had enough clue for such hacking, they > wouldn't be such lamers to cheat. I don't think anyone is talking about ditching the RSA system. It was turned off on several servers during MacTrek's teething pains, but I think it's back on on pickled and continuum. >> We have that. No metaserver currently discriminates. > > Well... there have been times when people felt like favouring one > server over the others (or type of servers). Especially recently > when Bill's Sturgeon server caught some players this was raised. > I just want to know what the powers feel about it generally. Yes, and those times were resolved, and the resolution demonstrates how the server admins feel about it. >> Right now we have a resource shortage, not an organization >> shortage. > > Like what resource? Like the ones I've been trying to tell you about since December. Players, Programmers, Sysadmins, Web developers. >> We are a lean and efficient organization. > > Then please add some more progress publicity. > I don't check every page on netrek.org each day to catch every > significant progress that could happen randomly. > Last relevant news: 23-Feb-2007 We're beginning to resurrect the > website. If you want to see the changes, set up a darcs repository for yourself. When you want to see what's happened lately, update your repo; you will be presented with change logs and patches you can read. >> Find me five hundred additional active players, a half dozen more >> game servers live, six to ten more coders, web authors, and >> sysadmins, and we might need some of the stuff you post about. > > ... in the past we had all that and _therefore_ no need for an > organisation (league aside). We need something to get started again. > Chaotic "everyone does what he wants when he wants" (possibly > struggling against each other) dissolves into nothingness. We need > more coordination for the little that we have left. Nonsense. People in software development projects always dispute and have personality issues; adding another organizational level increases, not decreases, that overhead. We're progresssing slowly, but definately progressing. Because of random chaos; Narcis wrote a Mac client, someone else is doing a Nokia port, I rewrote a lot of webpages. Any of us bothering to vote on directors would have just eaten more effort and detracted from that progress. You seem to like Wikis. They mostly don't have directors, and make a lot of progress. Their whole advantage is flexible self-organization with easy access. From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to Sun Jul 1 14:30:24 2007 From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 15:30:24 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] creating netrek authority In-Reply-To: <20070701152440.GF5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> (Rado S.'s message of "Sun, 1 Jul 2007 17:24:40 +0200") References: <20070701152440.GF5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <0qejjrkjlb.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> > ----- Forwarded message from James Cameron ----- >> These are philosophical questions ... there is no authority, there >> is no organisation, except that which we create. Rado S writes: > Then why not create it? Doing so costs time and attention we do not have when our current lack of it works just fine. From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to Sun Jul 1 14:31:47 2007 From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 15:31:47 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek.org observations In-Reply-To: <20070701012254.GB5503@us.netrek.org> (James Cameron's message of "Sun, 1 Jul 2007 11:22:54 +1000") References: <20070630155249.GD3128@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070701012254.GB5503@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <0qbqevkjj0.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Rado: >> (2-3 more servers might come later when ready) James Cameron writes: > netrek.org maintainers please avoid statements about futures unless they > are backed by substantial evidence. People mistrust web sites that > claim things that do not happen, and as content maintainers you cannot > ensure this predicted event happens. Agreed. From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to Sun Jul 1 14:31:42 2007 From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 15:31:42 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Joe's and Andrew's plans? In-Reply-To: <20070701145035.GD5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> (Rado S.'s message of "Sun, 1 Jul 2007 16:50:35 +0200") References: <20070701145035.GD5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <0qd4zbkjj5.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> > ----- Forwarded message from Dave Ahn ----- > >> The wiki path is complementary to what Andrew and Joe are doing, >> and I'll open it up eventually. Rado S writes: > Now ... you've lost me there. > What exactly are you 2 up to, when it is apparently not only about > the netrek.org relaunch (which was once meant to be run via wiki)? > > When will we see it? What can we do to help you? Rado, I spent a huge amount of time in December and January trying to explain this to you. I'm sorry I failed to be able to communicate it, but I really don't have the patience to try again. I'll make it as simple as possible. What we're up to? We're working on the website. Websites are not about one kind of content. Wikis and static HTML or dynamic PHP are not mutually exclusive. Wikis are good for some things and bad at others. I attempt to use the best tool for the job. For example, a wiki would likely be good for documentation. It would be bad for anything containing a link exchange unless the page had limited edit permissions. A wiki takes a lot of admin overhead, which is why we don't have one for marketing purposes yet, but do have one for development. At the moment, our priorities are to merge playnetrek.org into www.netrek.org without it negatively impacting our search engine rankings or link exchange traffic. This should have the net effect of increasing search engine ranking by centralizing traffic and links to us. It will also free up some resources by having to maintain only one site instead of two. After that, we'd like to do a big advertising push and figure out ways to market the game. There's a lot of documentation still to write or revise. I've repeatedly stated that help on this is welcome. From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to Sun Jul 1 14:31:53 2007 From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 15:31:53 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek.org observations In-Reply-To: <20070630155249.GD3128@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> (Rado S.'s message of "Sat, 30 Jun 2007 17:52:49 +0200") References: <20070630155249.GD3128@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <0qabufkjiu.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> On all reports/requests for web site stuff, please specify what page you are referring to. I will make a specific note right here: Netrek is not in good shape. Rado S writes: > Observations of passages on netrek.org: > > "It costs no money to play, there are no ads, and it's open source." > and right next to it "Paradise 2000", that's ... contradictory. OK, I'll add a qualifier. And I'll add a qualifier on the ads part for link exchanges. > Please use irc://irc.freenode.net/#netrek (with the '#'), to avoid > confusion with a potential "netrek" user. ok, modded in my dev copy. will probably be a few days before I push it to the server. > http://www.netrek.org/servers/machines.php > Please add paradise.homeunix.org (type Paradise), notes: > - local modifications to ship selection, CV "carrier" is > CC "calamari" and might work differently (untested). > - not all ships available (like PT). > - wormholes enabled. I'll do this, with some notes about it not being in the metaserver and having to turn "TryUDP: off". I guarentee, though, that this is futile. You aren't going to get any new players who bother with flipping config file settings and entering the server on a command line. You can't get p2k into a major distribution because it isn't open source, and you can't get a blessed TT build, or even any TT build, because you have no programmer resources. Without being in a distribution, I see no other way you will attract players to a game that doesn't have any unless you do banner and google ads, which I very much doubt will happen. Even though it's futile, and thus a waste of my/our limited resources, I'll do it for the sake of fairness and completeness, but please be aware of the costs of what you are asking; I don't have enough time to do netrek stuff as it is. Efforts need to be concentrated in the highest-return areas. > Downloads: misses Paradise + TedTurner, add with notes that it can > play both Paradise + Bronco. "There are a bunch of older clients (COW for Windows, BRMH and TedTurner for Unixes including Mac OS X) available on the full client download listing page." There are no current TT builds; every one of them is at least two major OS revs back. There is no player base using this client. > - Ad p2k see above: "which means that the Netrek source code is > freely available." > - Ad RSA see "consensus" response in other mail: "To prevent > cheating, all official client binaries authenticate themselves via > RSA to the server. They are called "blessed" clients." > If consensus says it's pointless, drop it altogether. > Otherwise let's have a functional/ controlled system (even > if unperfect). > - Ad TedTurner: I read Dave has added some patches recently to > correct errors with torps, but I have no idea where he stored the > code now... maybe you can clarify this with him to correct the link > and propagate it to us. > - Ad Paradise missing: TT is just flashier, but basically they do > the same. It's smaller/ leaner and therefore preference for some. > Paradise still works fine like brmh. I don't really understand much of what you mean here. From jrd at gerdesas.com Sun Jul 1 14:41:05 2007 From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 14:41:05 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] "rado to -dev translation gateway" for joe + Quozl In-Reply-To: <0qhconkjng.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <20070619202621.GK21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0q645hstiy.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070630155238.GC3128@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0qhconkjng.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <20070701194105.GD25316@mail.beanhq.com> On Sun, Jul 01, 2007 at 03:29:07PM -0400, Andrew K. Bressen wrote: > > I don't think anyone is talking about ditching the RSA system. > It was turned off on several servers during MacTrek's teething > pains, but I think it's back on on pickled and continuum. Not enforced on pickled, warning only. > Like the ones I've been trying to tell you about since December. > Players, Programmers, Sysadmins, Web developers. 20+ years of unix engineering background. I am, as always, available for anything that needs to be done. John -- "I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones." As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to be put through to an engineer. "My other computer is your windows box." Ralf Hildebrandt trying to play sturgeon while it's under attack is apparently not fun. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070701/852b1872/attachment.pgp From karthik at karthik.com Sun Jul 1 18:09:39 2007 From: karthik at karthik.com (Karthik Arumugham) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 19:09:39 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] "rado to -dev translation gateway" for joe + Quozl In-Reply-To: <0qhconkjng.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <20070619202621.GK21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0q645hstiy.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070630155238.GC3128@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0qhconkjng.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: On Jul 1, 2007, at 3:29 PM, Andrew K. Bressen wrote: > I don't think anyone is talking about ditching the RSA system. > It was turned off on several servers during MacTrek's teething > pains, but I think it's back on on pickled and continuum. RSA is still off on both servers. MacTrek 1.2 now supports RSA, but it's kind of flakey. There's a 1.3 release coming soon, hopefully the RSA authentication works better. I would like to re-enable RSA, but not until these MacTrek users have a viable, blessed client to use. From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to Sun Jul 1 19:12:25 2007 From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 20:12:25 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek.org observations In-Reply-To: <0qabufkjiu.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> (Andrew K. Bressen's message of "Sun, 01 Jul 2007 15:31:53 -0400") References: <20070630155249.GD3128@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0qabufkjiu.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <0q6453k6ja.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) writes: > On all reports/requests for web site stuff, > please specify what page you are referring to. > > I will make a specific note right here: > Netrek is not in good shape. oh, sorry, more was supposed to follow this, but it's stuff I wrote up in those other messages about priorities and resource management. From quozl at us.netrek.org Mon Jul 2 00:45:13 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 15:45:13 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] client control In-Reply-To: <20070701152220.GE5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <20070701152220.GE5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070702054513.GB10191@us.netrek.org> On Sun, Jul 01, 2007 at 05:22:20PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > Raising the threshold just a little makes it harder for simpletons > to just change a few simple things to give them an advantage and > reduces the number of people capable of cheating, just because it > isn't as easily possible anymore. I will not lie to the simpletons by creating a perception of security. I'd prefer to have simpletons rather than experts, attempting to cheat, since it will be more obvious and detectable on average. By lowering the threshold it makes it easier to notice cheating. I know of no way to avoid this kind of cheating, short of being in total control of the player's computer. That isn't possible. Unless you can produce a model that would work, your views are noise. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From quozl at us.netrek.org Mon Jul 2 00:48:23 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 15:48:23 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] creating netrek authority In-Reply-To: <20070701152440.GF5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <20070701152440.GF5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070702054823.GC10191@us.netrek.org> On Sun, Jul 01, 2007 at 05:24:40PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > ----- Forwarded message from James Cameron ----- > > These are philosophical questions ... there is no authority, there > > is no organisation, except that which we create. This message you have quoted is from 19th December 2006, and it is out of date. Things have changed since then. There is no point answering your questions on this quoted message, since they are built on sand. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From netrek at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 01:00:09 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 02:00:09 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Missing posts on the dev list? In-Reply-To: <20070701184348.GC25316@mail.beanhq.com> References: <20070701142351.GB5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070701184348.GC25316@mail.beanhq.com> Message-ID: I realized I am also missing some posts! Zach From quozl at us.netrek.org Mon Jul 2 01:08:47 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 16:08:47 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] how the "director" idea started In-Reply-To: <20070701154925.GH5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <20070701154925.GH5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070702060847.GF10191@us.netrek.org> On Sun, Jul 01, 2007 at 05:49:26PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > Wow, I forgot about this answer, and now that I found it again, I > wonder why you reacted the way you did [...] You can waste a lot of our time by analysing our reactions. I advise against analysis. There is no way for you to know the circumstances in which I've replied. > What kind of reaction to this response of yours have you expected? I had no expectations. None. I don't write a response based on expectations. If I do, then I'm gaming in text. I'm here to code and play Netrek, not to entertain your mail addiction. I call a spade a spade. I suspect you cannot. Next question? -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From netrek at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 01:49:57 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 02:49:57 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek.org observations In-Reply-To: <0qabufkjiu.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <20070630155249.GD3128@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0qabufkjiu.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: On 7/1/07, Andrew K. Bressen wrote: > > > On all reports/requests for web site stuff, > please specify what page you are referring to. > > I will make a specific note right here: > Netrek is not in good shape. I would not say that on the website, we don't want to give ourselves bad press to discourage potential newbies :) Zach From quozl at us.netrek.org Mon Jul 2 02:17:41 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 17:17:41 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek.org observations In-Reply-To: References: <20070630155249.GD3128@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0qabufkjiu.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <20070702071741.GA14596@us.netrek.org> On Mon, Jul 02, 2007 at 02:49:57AM -0400, Zach wrote: > I would not say that on the website, we don't want to give ourselves > bad press to discourage potential newbies :) I disagree. I think we should say there how clue normally react to newbies, and encourage the newbies to learn how to cope, giving them the resources they need. We might get newbies then who can handle the verbal abuse from clue. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From netrek at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 02:33:26 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 03:33:26 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek.org observations In-Reply-To: <20070702071741.GA14596@us.netrek.org> References: <20070630155249.GD3128@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0qabufkjiu.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070702071741.GA14596@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: On 7/2/07, James Cameron wrote: > On Mon, Jul 02, 2007 at 02:49:57AM -0400, Zach wrote: > > I would not say that on the website, we don't want to give ourselves > > bad press to discourage potential newbies :) > > I disagree. I think we should say there how clue normally react to > newbies, and encourage the newbies to learn how to cope, giving them the > resources they need. We might get newbies then who can handle the > verbal abuse from clue. Well I agree we should prepare them and let newbies know some netrek players will be verbally abusive at times, but let's be careful not to overstate the problem. A false impression could easily be conveyed and scare off potential players. Zach From jrd at gerdesas.com Mon Jul 2 02:37:51 2007 From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 02:37:51 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek.org observations In-Reply-To: <20070702071741.GA14596@us.netrek.org> References: <20070630155249.GD3128@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0qabufkjiu.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070702071741.GA14596@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070702073751.GF25316@mail.beanhq.com> On Mon, Jul 02, 2007 at 05:17:41PM +1000, James Cameron wrote: > > I disagree. I think we should say there how clue normally react to > newbies, and encourage the newbies to learn how to cope, giving them the > resources they need. We might get newbies then who can handle the > verbal abuse from clue. I see very few newbies that get upset by smack talk. One has to read to be offended, and far, far too many newbies do not read. Which is one of the things that upsets clue. I still stand by previous observation, by the way, that most mac newbies can read and write messages while most windows newbies can not. But yes, the web site should have something on it about the fact that this is a competitive game, where at times tempers and emotions can be raised to a high level, and as such there is smack talk. Falcon has a macro that he fires off at times that explains the concept of :ita that does seem to help; I do not recall if Joe's tutorial goes into detail about :ita, or if the Mac docs reference it or not. If either one does not go into details on what :ita is and how to make use of it then they should probably be updated with that information. John -- "I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones." As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to be put through to an engineer. "My other computer is your windows box." Ralf Hildebrandt trying to play sturgeon while it's under attack is apparently not fun. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070702/776ef7c7/attachment.pgp From jjadeinc at hotmail.com Mon Jul 2 09:02:45 2007 From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 09:02:45 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek.org observations In-Reply-To: <20070702073751.GF25316@mail.beanhq.com> Message-ID: Top of page 8 of the flash tutorial covers :ita pretty well and the communication and messaging page in the help section also explains there are no language filters and how to ignore people. -Joe >From: "John R. Dennison" >Reply-To: Netrek Development Mailing List > > Falcon has a macro that he fires off at times that explains > the concept of :ita that does seem to help; I do not recall > if Joe's tutorial goes into detail about :ita, or if the > Mac docs reference it or not. If either one does not go into > details on what :ita is and how to make use of it then they > should probably be updated with that information. > _________________________________________________________________ Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i?m Initiative now. It?s free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_June07 From jrd at gerdesas.com Mon Jul 2 09:58:07 2007 From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 09:58:07 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek.org observations In-Reply-To: References: <20070702073751.GF25316@mail.beanhq.com> Message-ID: <20070702145807.GG25316@mail.beanhq.com> On Mon, Jul 02, 2007 at 09:02:45AM -0500, Joe Evango wrote: > Top of page 8 of the flash tutorial covers :ita pretty well and the > communication and messaging page in the help section also explains there > are no language filters and how to ignore people. Good job, Joe. As I said, I could not recall if that information was present or not. Thank you, John -- "I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones." As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to be put through to an engineer. "My other computer is your windows box." Ralf Hildebrandt trying to play sturgeon while it's under attack is apparently not fun. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070702/595ee955/attachment.pgp From regrado at web.de Tue Jul 3 13:39:43 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 20:39:43 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] Missing posts on the dev list? In-Reply-To: References: <20070701142351.GB5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070701184348.GC25316@mail.beanhq.com> Message-ID: <20070703183943.GC21064@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- Zach wrote on Mon 2.Jul'07 at 2:00:09 -0400 -= > I realized I am also missing some posts! Hmm... maybe Bob can check his logs for those recipients definitely missing posts. I'm not aware of recent misses (don't spam-filter this list). Anyway, maybe it's not your personal setup, but still a problem on your side, as in that your ISP is doing you some "favour" you might not want it to. Or it's occasionally listed on some RBLs. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From jrd at gerdesas.com Tue Jul 3 16:04:27 2007 From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 16:04:27 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] Missing posts on the dev list? In-Reply-To: <20070703183943.GC21064@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <20070701142351.GB5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070701184348.GC25316@mail.beanhq.com> <20070703183943.GC21064@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070703210427.GJ25316@mail.beanhq.com> On Tue, Jul 03, 2007 at 08:39:43PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > =- Zach wrote on Mon 2.Jul'07 at 2:00:09 -0400 -= > > Anyway, maybe it's not your personal setup, but still a problem on > your side, as in that your ISP is doing you some "favour" you might > not want it to. Or it's occasionally listed on some RBLs. This does not apply to me. I handle my own mail. John -- "I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones." As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to be put through to an engineer. "My other computer is your windows box." Ralf Hildebrandt trying to play sturgeon while it's under attack is apparently not fun. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070703/ea5838f9/attachment.pgp From quozl at us.netrek.org Tue Jul 3 18:48:12 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 09:48:12 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek.hwy.com.au decommissioned Message-ID: <20070703234812.GB3930@us.netrek.org> The service provider has moved their data centre, and asked me if I'm still interested in operating netrek.hwy.com.au, and if I am they want $AUD 11 per month hosting rather than gratis. So I've decided to decommission it. The metaserver problems it induced, the surprising lag, and the access difficulties also came into the equation. ;-) -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From netrek at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 20:16:38 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 21:16:38 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek.hwy.com.au decommissioned In-Reply-To: <20070703234812.GB3930@us.netrek.org> References: <20070703234812.GB3930@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: Requiescat In Pace! I hope another Aussie server can be found since there has been a spike in Aussie players interested in local games in the past months. Zach On 7/3/07, James Cameron wrote: > The service provider has moved their data centre, and asked me if I'm > still interested in operating netrek.hwy.com.au, and if I am they want > $AUD 11 per month hosting rather than gratis. > > So I've decided to decommission it. > > The metaserver problems it induced, the surprising lag, and the access > difficulties also came into the equation. ;-) > > -- > James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > netrek-dev mailing list > netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev > From narcis at luky.nl Fri Jul 6 02:40:11 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 09:40:11 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] MacTrek 1.3 released In-Reply-To: <07305A6E-32AA-4ED0-AC58-5114120E70A9@luky.nl> References: <07305A6E-32AA-4ED0-AC58-5114120E70A9@luky.nl> Message-ID: <5BD0CA8A-E1F1-4FAA-B0AE-B45077956E10@luky.nl> Posted By: lukassen Date: 2007-07-06 07:05 Summary: 1.3.0 Released, 1.2 depricated As of now MacTrek 1.3 is the main version in the field. Support on the 1.2 branch (1.2.0) is officially dropped. SVN holds the release versions as well as development branches of all releases. You may expect 1.3.x updates with bugfixes until 1.4 is released (main development trunk) Hopefully not too many. - Added support for multiple LAN cards and IPv6 - Added detonation circle - Added improved localhost server - Added transparent fuel gauge - Added hull strength ring - Added instant play (auto login) (1718727) - Added tip of the day (1722468) - Added support for wait queues (1718734) - Added help button with manual to game (1723627) - Added initial support for UDP - Added new sounds - Bugfix no longer show timed out servers - Bugfix can now quickly switch between servers - Bugfix autorelease bug in server reader (1704614) - Bugfix return torp/phaser not checked (1705633) - Changed fonts to remove dependency (1722574) - Changed help window to transparent HUD - Changed splash screen - Changed implementation of network (speed bump!) - Changed size of console logging - Changed client size (reduce) - Changed default mouse buttons (1722573) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070706/e4b80647/attachment.htm From netrek at gmail.com Fri Jul 6 05:02:13 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 06:02:13 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] MacTrek 1.3 released In-Reply-To: <5BD0CA8A-E1F1-4FAA-B0AE-B45077956E10@luky.nl> References: <07305A6E-32AA-4ED0-AC58-5114120E70A9@luky.nl> <5BD0CA8A-E1F1-4FAA-B0AE-B45077956E10@luky.nl> Message-ID: Wow you've been busy Chris! What changes did you make to the local server - how is different from regular Vanilla server? Zach On 7/6/07, Narcis wrote: > > Posted By: lukassen > Date: 2007-07-06 07:05 > Summary: 1.3.0 Released, 1.2 depricated > > As of now MacTrek 1.3 is the main version in the field. Support on the 1.2 > branch (1.2.0) is officially dropped. SVN holds the release versions as well > as development branches of all releases. > > > You may expect 1.3.x updates with bugfixes until 1.4 is released (main > development trunk) Hopefully not too many. > > > - Added support for multiple LAN cards and IPv6 > - Added detonation circle > - Added improved localhost server > - Added transparent fuel gauge > - Added hull strength ring > - Added instant play (auto login) (1718727) > - Added tip of the day (1722468) > - Added support for wait queues (1718734) > - Added help button with manual to game (1723627) > - Added initial support for UDP > - Added new sounds > - Bugfix no longer show timed out servers > - Bugfix can now quickly switch between servers > - Bugfix autorelease bug in server reader (1704614) > - Bugfix return torp/phaser not checked (1705633) > - Changed fonts to remove dependency (1722574) > - Changed help window to transparent HUD > - Changed splash screen > - Changed implementation of network (speed bump!) > - Changed size of console logging > - Changed client size (reduce) > - Changed default mouse buttons (1722573) > > > _______________________________________________ > netrek-dev mailing list > netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev > > From chris at luky.nl Fri Jul 6 02:19:53 2007 From: chris at luky.nl (Chris Lukassen) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 09:19:53 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] MacTrek 1.3 released Message-ID: <7A291BE4-A03B-46F5-8413-20BBB453FA12@luky.nl> Posted By: lukassen Date: 2007-07-06 07:05 Summary: 1.3.0 Released, 1.2 depricated As of now MacTrek 1.3 is the main version in the field. Support on the 1.2 branch (1.2.0) is officially dropped. SVN holds the release versions as well as development branches of all releases. You may expect 1.3.x updates with bugfixes until 1.4 is released (main development trunk) Hopefully not too many. - Added support for multiple LAN cards and IPv6 - Added detonation circle - Added improved localhost server - Added transparent fuel gauge - Added hull strength ring - Added instant play (auto login) (1718727) - Added tip of the day (1722468) - Added support for wait queues (1718734) - Added help button with manual to game (1723627) - Added initial support for UDP - Added new sounds - Bugfix no longer show timed out servers - Bugfix can now quickly switch between servers - Bugfix autorelease bug in server reader (1704614) - Bugfix return torp/phaser not checked (1705633) - Changed fonts to remove dependency (1722574) - Changed help window to transparent HUD - Changed splash screen - Changed implementation of network (speed bump!) - Changed size of console logging - Changed client size (reduce) - Changed default mouse buttons (1722573) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070706/def42cbf/attachment-0001.htm From karthik at karthik.com Fri Jul 6 10:09:22 2007 From: karthik at karthik.com (Karthik Arumugham) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 11:09:22 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] MacTrek 1.3 released In-Reply-To: <5BD0CA8A-E1F1-4FAA-B0AE-B45077956E10@luky.nl> References: <07305A6E-32AA-4ED0-AC58-5114120E70A9@luky.nl> <5BD0CA8A-E1F1-4FAA-B0AE-B45077956E10@luky.nl> Message-ID: <365C5972-D4B1-4ACF-9AEC-8EEF3DF92D07@karthik.com> A couple of problems noted immediately: Instant play only works once per launch for me. If I try it again, nothing happens when I click the button. (When it does work, though, it works quite well to get the player into the game! Well done.) The login button on the server selection screen is sometimes grayed out after getting to the screen and selecting a server. I had to select another server then go back to my original selection to make the button clickable. I also enjoyed seeing that left-click is now set course. This will help newbies immensely. Suggestion for next version: Semi-transparent box with the basic controls (course, speed, lock on planet, phasers, torps, shields, repair, cloak, full help key) that hovers when you enter the game. Have both that box and the main menu tip box have a "Don't show this to me in the future" checkbox, so players don't have to see it anymore once they've gotten the hang of it. From jrd at gerdesas.com Sat Jul 7 15:09:08 2007 From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 15:09:08 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] MacTrek 1.3 released In-Reply-To: <7A291BE4-A03B-46F5-8413-20BBB453FA12@luky.nl> References: <7A291BE4-A03B-46F5-8413-20BBB453FA12@luky.nl> Message-ID: <20070707200908.GR25316@mail.beanhq.com> On Fri, Jul 06, 2007 at 09:19:53AM +0200, Chris Lukassen wrote: > > As of now MacTrek 1.3 is the main version in the field. Support on > the 1.2 branch (1.2.0) is officially dropped. SVN holds the release > versions as well as development branches of all releases. There is apparently an issue with 1.2 and I believe I have also seen it occur with 1.3, where if there is no client activity within 30 seconds it ghostbusts. This is not the impression we wish new players to see when they first play netrek, it gives the impression that the game is broken. Has this been address? Does your client respond to server pings? John -- "I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones." As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to be put through to an engineer. "My other computer is your windows box." Ralf Hildebrandt trying to play sturgeon while it's under attack is apparently not fun. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070707/4e8c2df6/attachment.pgp From quozl at us.netrek.org Sat Jul 7 22:01:58 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 13:01:58 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] MacTrek 1.3 released In-Reply-To: <20070707200908.GR25316@mail.beanhq.com> References: <7A291BE4-A03B-46F5-8413-20BBB453FA12@luky.nl> <20070707200908.GR25316@mail.beanhq.com> Message-ID: <20070708030158.GB6690@us.netrek.org> On Sat, Jul 07, 2007 at 03:09:08PM -0500, John R. Dennison wrote: > There is apparently an issue with 1.2 and I believe I have > also seen it occur with 1.3, where if there is no client > activity within 30 seconds it ghostbusts. This is not the > impression we wish new players to see when they first play > netrek, it gives the impression that the game is broken. > > Has this been address? Does your client respond to server > pings? It isn't sufficient to merely respond to server pings. The client must also ask for the server to send the pings. This is a feature of the current server source code. Here's a specification written from the source: The use of the ping packets within the Netrek protocol is mandatory, as follows: 1. the client must send CP_PING_RESPONSE with a pingme value set to 1, after it receives the SP_LOGIN with accept set to 1. 2. on receipt of CP_PING_RESPONSE with pingme set to 1, the server will send SP_PING packets to the client based on etc/sysdef configuration, 3. when the client receives an SP_PING packet, it must send a corresponding CP_PING_RESPONSE packet in reply. Failure to do either 1 or 3 results in disconnection once the player is idle for a time. The time is dependent on the ghostbust interval timer, which is currently about 30 seconds, and the ping interval set by etc/sysdef. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From quozl at us.netrek.org Sat Jul 7 23:23:50 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 14:23:50 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] MacTrek 1.3 released In-Reply-To: <20070708030158.GB6690@us.netrek.org> References: <7A291BE4-A03B-46F5-8413-20BBB453FA12@luky.nl> <20070707200908.GR25316@mail.beanhq.com> <20070708030158.GB6690@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070708042350.GA8466@us.netrek.org> On Sun, Jul 08, 2007 at 01:01:58PM +1000, James Cameron wrote: > 2. on receipt of CP_PING_RESPONSE with pingme set to 1, the server will > send SP_PING packets to the client based on etc/sysdef configuration, Additional qualifier ... the server won't do this until a CP_RESERVED response is received. Without the CP_RESERVED, the initial CP_PING_RESPONSE causes an SP_WARNING saying that pings are being sent, but no SP_PING packets will be sent. Variable testtime. This is probably so that the CP_RESERVED vs SP_RESERVED old-style or RSA client authentication and ping response will not interfere with each other. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From narcis at luky.nl Sun Jul 8 02:51:06 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 09:51:06 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-dev Digest, Vol 29, Issue 7 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Wow you've been busy Chris! What changes did you make to the local > server - how is different from regular Vanilla server? Not, but the configuration files used in MacTrek have been tweaked which will improve performance over the last MacTrek version. cheers C From narcis at luky.nl Sun Jul 8 02:56:45 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 09:56:45 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-dev Digest, Vol 29, Issue 8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <320DF77C-D59D-4CE6-A4E9-0E766558300C@luky.nl> > > A couple of problems noted immediately: > > Instant play only works once per launch for me. If I try it again, > nothing happens when I click the button. (When it does work, though, > it works quite well to get the player into the game! Well done.) Seen something like that. has something to do with reconnecting to the same server. probably sees it is still connected (on tcp/ip) and refuses to reconnect > The login button on the server selection screen is sometimes grayed > out after getting to the screen and selecting a server. I had to > select another server then go back to my original selection to make > the button clickable. seems related. should invest some time in re-connecting. Please drop a bugreport on sourceforge/projects/mactrek. > I also enjoyed seeing that left-click is now set course. This will > help newbies immensely. Yes, i hope so because it is the first setting i change :-) i hate it that way, but if it helps the newbie its ok > Suggestion for next version: Semi-transparent box with the basic > controls (course, speed, lock on planet, phasers, torps, shields, > repair, cloak, full help key) that hovers when you enter the game. > Have both that box and the main menu tip box have a "Don't show this > to me in the future" checkbox, so players don't have to see it > anymore once they've gotten the hang of it. hmm, i could start with help on (h). you now have to press h several times 1 - shows controls, 2 - shows macros, 3 - hide. this is probably expandable to 1 - shows simple controls, 2 - show extended controls, 3 - shows macros, 4 - hide. including your "show help while gaming" setting in the settings panel. interesting feature. regards C From netrek at gmail.com Sun Jul 8 17:26:13 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 18:26:13 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] MacTrek and release cycle Message-ID: I appreciate all the work Chris did on 1.3 release of MacTrek but next time perhaps do more beta testing (I'd be glad to volunteer except I don't have a Mac heh) and maybe very serious bugs like the current ghosbust after 30 sec. bug would be found. In the past 2 days I've counted at least 30 unique MacTrek 1.3 users who login to play and then bust. If this is there first impression of netrek they may just give up in disgust since the client won't let them play for more than 30 seconds. And I still see a good number of MacTrek users with the 1.1 version so it may be a while before the users realize there is a new fixed version released. Regards, Zach From quozl at us.netrek.org Sun Jul 8 18:48:12 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 09:48:12 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] MacTrek and release cycle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070708234812.GA3664@us.netrek.org> My understanding of the problem is that the client will let them play, but if they are idle for more than 30 seconds then the server ghostbusts them. You don't know that the ghostbust (that you observe as another player or observer slot) is seen by the MacTrek user as a serious bug. You will get the same evidence on a server if they close the application. My guess is that those 30 instances represent maybe 20 deliberate quits. Even if it is the activity timeout, so what? They left the application alone on screen and did nothing. What the application does next is critical to the user's perception. The good thing about a major bug is that it lets you release 1.3.1 or 1.4 quickly. It is an opportunity. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From netrek at gmail.com Mon Jul 9 04:51:24 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 05:51:24 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] MacTrek and release cycle In-Reply-To: <20070708234812.GA3664@us.netrek.org> References: <20070708234812.GA3664@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: On 7/8/07, James Cameron wrote: > My understanding of the problem is that the client will let them play, > but if they are idle for more than 30 seconds then the server ghostbusts > them. > > You don't know that the ghostbust (that you observe as another player or > observer slot) is seen by the MacTrek user as a serious bug. You will > get the same evidence on a server if they close the application. My > guess is that those 30 instances represent maybe 20 deliberate quits. Yes but I think it maybe higher, I saw instances where I observed the ship engaging (firing torps, changng speed/course) and suddenly I see then wandering off into 3rd space and then they bust, I also observed several times busted players try to come back in and saw them repeat the process. > Even if it is the activity timeout, so what? They left the application > alone on screen and did nothing. What the application does next is > critical to the user's perception. Yeah. > The good thing about a major bug is that it lets you release 1.3.1 or > 1.4 quickly. It is an opportunity. :) I've never seen so many new players in a given 1-2 day period. Maybe other clients should buy some advertising space on apple.com ;-) Zach From karthik at karthik.com Mon Jul 9 14:27:09 2007 From: karthik at karthik.com (Karthik Arumugham) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 15:27:09 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] MacTrek 1.3 released In-Reply-To: <20070707200908.GR25316@mail.beanhq.com> References: <7A291BE4-A03B-46F5-8413-20BBB453FA12@luky.nl> <20070707200908.GR25316@mail.beanhq.com> Message-ID: <48A8ABF6-2EA4-4ED9-B2A4-E21D026681AA@karthik.com> Another minor bug: Messaging 'g' messages God instead of slot g. The proper behavior should be for lowercase 'g' to message slot g, and uppercase 'G' to message God. Also, for 't', the order should be probably reversed; lowercase 't' should message the team, and uppercase 'T' should message slot t. The disparity here is because messages to team members are much more common than God messages, and it's very, very rare for slot t to be in a game; however, it's very common to have observers in slot g. From narcis at luky.nl Tue Jul 10 11:24:26 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 18:24:26 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] MacTrek Pings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Here's a specification written from the source: > > The use of the ping packets within the Netrek protocol is > mandatory, as > follows: > > 1. the client must send CP_PING_RESPONSE with a pingme value set > to 1, > after it receives the SP_LOGIN with accept set to 1. > > 2. on receipt of CP_PING_RESPONSE with pingme set to 1, the server > will > send SP_PING packets to the client based on etc/sysdef configuration, > > 3. when the client receives an SP_PING packet, it must send a > corresponding CP_PING_RESPONSE packet in reply. > > Failure to do either 1 or 3 results in disconnection once the > player is > idle for a time. The time is dependent on the ghostbust interval > timer, > which is currently about 30 seconds, and the ping interval set by > etc/sysdef. > which is what happens, i;ve implemented it and am testing it right now. stay tuned.... regards C From narcis at luky.nl Tue Jul 10 11:55:37 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 18:55:37 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-dev Digest, Vol 29, Issue 10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <700EE70E-054D-4FC0-A528-F44E95851918@luky.nl> > I appreciate all the work Chris did on 1.3 release of MacTrek but next > time perhaps do more beta testing (I'd be glad to volunteer except I > don't have a Mac heh) Which is the root of the problem. There is only one developer, one tester it is easy to miss spots. The only real solution is more people on the project, maybe checkout don't tell Jobs i send you :-) > I still see a good number of MacTrek users with the > 1.1 version so it may be a while before the users realize there is a > new fixed version released. Amen, maybe the app should check for updates, but i need to figure out how. > The good thing about a major bug is that it lets you release 1.3.1 or > 1.4 quickly. It is an opportunity. Testing right now, but every now and then i need some sleep :-0 Releasing will take some time though (see the last page in I'll try to find some non-developer macs to test.. regards C From netrek at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 12:50:56 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 13:50:56 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-dev Digest, Vol 29, Issue 10 In-Reply-To: <700EE70E-054D-4FC0-A528-F44E95851918@luky.nl> References: <700EE70E-054D-4FC0-A528-F44E95851918@luky.nl> Message-ID: On 7/10/07, Narcis wrote: > The only real solution is more people on the > project, maybe checkout don't tell > Jobs i send you :-) Hehe. Cool site, thanks. Zach From netrek at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 12:50:18 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 13:50:18 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-dev Digest, Vol 29, Issue 10 In-Reply-To: <700EE70E-054D-4FC0-A528-F44E95851918@luky.nl> References: <700EE70E-054D-4FC0-A528-F44E95851918@luky.nl> Message-ID: On 7/10/07, Narcis wrote: > > I'll try to find some non-developer macs to test.. I think Karthik has a Mac, he is a netrek player. Zach From jrd at gerdesas.com Tue Jul 10 13:25:51 2007 From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 13:25:51 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-dev Digest, Vol 29, Issue 10 In-Reply-To: <700EE70E-054D-4FC0-A528-F44E95851918@luky.nl> References: <700EE70E-054D-4FC0-A528-F44E95851918@luky.nl> Message-ID: <20070710182551.GE25316@mail.beanhq.com> On Tue, Jul 10, 2007 at 06:55:37PM +0200, Narcis wrote: > > Amen, maybe the app should check for updates, but i need to figure > out how. Simplest way is to do a dns lookup to a specific nameserver, looking for a TXT resource record, the contents of which is the revision number of the current version. If the returned RR does not equal the version of the client the current user is running, pop up a window letting them know a new version is available, and possibly do an in-line update if the user wants. John -- "I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones." As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to be put through to an engineer. "My other computer is your windows box." Ralf Hildebrandt trying to play sturgeon while it's under attack is apparently not fun. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070710/2e6997fb/attachment.pgp From narcis at luky.nl Tue Jul 10 12:23:28 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 19:23:28 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] Messages sending to..... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16C3CAAB-77F6-436F-820F-FD1D61FD4FC3@luky.nl> > > Another minor bug: > > Messaging 'g' messages God instead of slot g. The proper behavior > should be for lowercase 'g' to message slot g, and uppercase 'G' to > message God. added to sourceforge.net, and fixed in the trunk > Also, for 't', the order should be probably reversed; > lowercase 't' should message the team, and uppercase 'T' should > message slot t. The disparity here is because messages to team > members are much more common than God messages, and it's very, very > rare for slot t to be in a game; Can there actually be a user t ? i thought it was based on hex numbers, t must be.... well i don't know be heart but high! regards C From karthik at karthik.com Tue Jul 10 16:40:01 2007 From: karthik at karthik.com (Karthik Arumugham) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 17:40:01 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Messages sending to..... In-Reply-To: <16C3CAAB-77F6-436F-820F-FD1D61FD4FC3@luky.nl> References: <16C3CAAB-77F6-436F-820F-FD1D61FD4FC3@luky.nl> Message-ID: On Jul 10, 2007, at 1:23 PM, Narcis wrote: >> Also, for 't', the order should be probably reversed; >> lowercase 't' should message the team, and uppercase 'T' should >> message slot t. The disparity here is because messages to team >> members are much more common than God messages, and it's very, very >> rare for slot t to be in a game; > > Can there actually be a user t ? i thought it was based on hex > numbers, t must be.... > well i don't know be heart but high! Indeed there can. There are 32 player slots, 0 - 9 and a - v. You'll notice that Kathy the pre-T bot occupies slot v on pickled. From netrek at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 16:48:14 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 17:48:14 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-dev Digest, Vol 29, Issue 10 In-Reply-To: <20070710182551.GE25316@mail.beanhq.com> References: <700EE70E-054D-4FC0-A528-F44E95851918@luky.nl> <20070710182551.GE25316@mail.beanhq.com> Message-ID: Yeah, you can even add an auto-update feature that would be on my default but can be turned off. Each time a player starts the client it will check if a new update is available and if so it will be automatically downloaded and installed and will preserve any client settings the user set already. Zach On 7/10/07, John R. Dennison wrote: > On Tue, Jul 10, 2007 at 06:55:37PM +0200, Narcis wrote: > > > > Amen, maybe the app should check for updates, but i need to figure > > out how. > > Simplest way is to do a dns lookup to a specific nameserver, > looking for a TXT resource record, the contents of which > is the revision number of the current version. If the > returned RR does not equal the version of the client the > current user is running, pop up a window letting them know > a new version is available, and possibly do an in-line update > if the user wants. > > > > John > > -- > "I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones." > As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to > be put through to an engineer. > > "My other computer is your windows box." > Ralf Hildebrandt > trying to play sturgeon while it's under attack is apparently not fun. > > _______________________________________________ > netrek-dev mailing list > netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev > > > From jeffrey.w.watts at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 16:56:57 2007 From: jeffrey.w.watts at gmail.com (Jeffrey Watts) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 16:56:57 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-dev Digest, Vol 29, Issue 10 In-Reply-To: References: <700EE70E-054D-4FC0-A528-F44E95851918@luky.nl> <20070710182551.GE25316@mail.beanhq.com> Message-ID: <65631e800707101456gce674fay136cc20c5ed2d69a@mail.gmail.com> Um, auto-update sounds like a terrible feature. Have it nag, but having it install by default is a recipe for disaster. Users HATE userspace apps doing things without their consent. Worse, it could get the client misidentified as malware. Jeffrey. On 7/10/07, Zach wrote: > > Yeah, you can even add an auto-update feature that would be on my > default but can be turned off. Each time a player starts the client it > will check if a new update is available and if so it will be > automatically downloaded and installed and will preserve any client > settings the user set already. > > Zach > > On 7/10/07, John R. Dennison wrote: > > On Tue, Jul 10, 2007 at 06:55:37PM +0200, Narcis wrote: > > > > > > Amen, maybe the app should check for updates, but i need to figure > > > out how. > > > > Simplest way is to do a dns lookup to a specific nameserver, > > looking for a TXT resource record, the contents of which > > is the revision number of the current version. If the > > returned RR does not equal the version of the client the > > current user is running, pop up a window letting them know > > a new version is available, and possibly do an in-line update > > if the user wants. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > netrek-dev mailing list > netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev > -- "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." -- Thomas Paine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070710/1e4e25b4/attachment.htm From netrek at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 17:02:04 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 18:02:04 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-dev Digest, Vol 29, Issue 10 In-Reply-To: <65631e800707101456gce674fay136cc20c5ed2d69a@mail.gmail.com> References: <700EE70E-054D-4FC0-A528-F44E95851918@luky.nl> <20070710182551.GE25316@mail.beanhq.com> <65631e800707101456gce674fay136cc20c5ed2d69a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 7/10/07, Jeffrey Watts wrote: > Um, auto-update sounds like a terrible feature. Have it nag, but having it > install by default is a recipe for disaster. Users HATE userspace apps > doing things without their consent. Worse, it could get the client > misidentified as malware. I didn't mean it would blithely install without user approval. This is standard in MANY apps these days: start client, "An update was detected - do you wish to install?" etc... Zach From jeffrey.w.watts at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 17:06:09 2007 From: jeffrey.w.watts at gmail.com (Jeffrey Watts) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 17:06:09 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-dev Digest, Vol 29, Issue 10 In-Reply-To: References: <700EE70E-054D-4FC0-A528-F44E95851918@luky.nl> <20070710182551.GE25316@mail.beanhq.com> <65631e800707101456gce674fay136cc20c5ed2d69a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <65631e800707101506w22e4e138w26fd22fd6ff20b0d@mail.gmail.com> Well, that's not how you worded it. :) Yeah prompting is a good idea. Jeffrey. On 7/10/07, Zach wrote: > > On 7/10/07, Jeffrey Watts wrote: > > Um, auto-update sounds like a terrible feature. Have it nag, but having > it > > install by default is a recipe for disaster. Users HATE userspace apps > > doing things without their consent. Worse, it could get the client > > misidentified as malware. > > I didn't mean it would blithely install without user approval. This is > standard in MANY apps these days: start client, "An update was > detected - do you wish to install?" etc... > > -- "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." -- Thomas Paine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070710/9caef191/attachment.htm From jrd at gerdesas.com Tue Jul 10 17:15:16 2007 From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 17:15:16 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-dev Digest, Vol 29, Issue 10 In-Reply-To: <65631e800707101456gce674fay136cc20c5ed2d69a@mail.gmail.com> References: <700EE70E-054D-4FC0-A528-F44E95851918@luky.nl> <20070710182551.GE25316@mail.beanhq.com> <65631e800707101456gce674fay136cc20c5ed2d69a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070710221516.GF25316@mail.beanhq.com> On Tue, Jul 10, 2007 at 04:56:57PM -0500, Jeffrey Watts wrote: > Um, auto-update sounds like a terrible feature. Have it nag, but having it > install by default is a recipe for disaster. Users HATE userspace apps > doing things without their consent. Worse, it could get the client > misidentified as malware. I concur. Which is why I originally suggested giving the user the choice via a pop-up. Detecting new version availability is trivial. I wish more clients would make use of it. John -- "I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones." As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to be put through to an engineer. "My other computer is your windows box." Ralf Hildebrandt trying to play sturgeon while it's under attack is apparently not fun. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070710/40c4ef71/attachment.pgp From netrek at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 17:23:01 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 18:23:01 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-dev Digest, Vol 29, Issue 10 In-Reply-To: <20070710221516.GF25316@mail.beanhq.com> References: <700EE70E-054D-4FC0-A528-F44E95851918@luky.nl> <20070710182551.GE25316@mail.beanhq.com> <65631e800707101456gce674fay136cc20c5ed2d69a@mail.gmail.com> <20070710221516.GF25316@mail.beanhq.com> Message-ID: On 7/10/07, John R. Dennison wrote: > > I concur. Which is why I originally suggested giving the > user the choice via a pop-up. Yeah, as I said I meant the user would have a choice, it wouldn't be forced on them, it's an option. A pop-up is one way that is popular. > Detecting new version availability is trivial. I wish more > clients would make use of it. Me too. Zach From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to Wed Jul 11 13:34:10 2007 From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 14:34:10 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] mactrek 1.3 In-Reply-To: (Joe Evango's message of "Wed, 11 Jul 2007 11:12:24 -0500") References: Message-ID: <0qy7hmbxi5.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> OK, website updated with MacTrek 1.3.0 Also typos on Dante's df guide fixed, and Quozl's retired server removed, and a bunch of other minor stuff. From narcis at luky.nl Wed Jul 11 17:13:01 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 00:13:01 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] MacTrek 1.4.0 released In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6855BDDF-E0A2-4C45-86A4-92AC9D207C56@luky.nl> Hi Guys, just released MacTrek 1.4 - Added detection of new client releases - Bugfix Ghostbust on idle (1750190) - Bugfix Reconnect fails (1750207) - Bugfix Message destination g..v not possible (1751357) upgrading is strongly adviced. I had no time to update the key so they will authenicate as 1.3 but respond to a hog call with 1.4.0 I'll hope to fix that soon, but not too soon :-) regards Chris From netrek at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 18:36:17 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 19:36:17 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] MacTrek 1.4.0 released In-Reply-To: <6855BDDF-E0A2-4C45-86A4-92AC9D207C56@luky.nl> References: <6855BDDF-E0A2-4C45-86A4-92AC9D207C56@luky.nl> Message-ID: Good work Chris :-) Zach On 7/11/07, Narcis wrote: > Hi Guys, > > just released MacTrek 1.4 > > - Added detection of new client releases > - Bugfix Ghostbust on idle (1750190) > - Bugfix Reconnect fails (1750207) > - Bugfix Message destination g..v not possible (1751357) > > upgrading is strongly adviced. I had no time to update the key > so they will authenicate as 1.3 but respond to a hog call with 1.4.0 > > I'll hope to fix that soon, but not too soon :-) > > regards > > Chris > > > > _______________________________________________ > netrek-dev mailing list > netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev > From netrek at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 19:19:35 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 20:19:35 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] mactrek 1.3 In-Reply-To: <0qy7hmbxi5.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0qy7hmbxi5.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: Chris just released the patched 1.3.0 which he called 1.4.0 Zach On 7/11/07, Andrew K. Bressen wrote: > > OK, website updated with MacTrek 1.3.0 > > Also typos on Dante's df guide fixed, > and Quozl's retired server removed, > and a bunch of other minor stuff. > > > _______________________________________________ > netrek-dev mailing list > netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev > From joe at playnetrek.org Wed Jul 11 20:07:04 2007 From: joe at playnetrek.org (Joe Evango) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 18:07:04 -0700 Subject: [netrek-dev] MacTrek 1.4.0 released References: <6855BDDF-E0A2-4C45-86A4-92AC9D207C56@luky.nl> Message-ID: netrek.org updated with MacTrek 1.4.0 -Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Narcis" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 3:13 PM Subject: [netrek-dev] MacTrek 1.4.0 released > Hi Guys, > > just released MacTrek 1.4 > > - Added detection of new client releases > - Bugfix Ghostbust on idle (1750190) > - Bugfix Reconnect fails (1750207) > - Bugfix Message destination g..v not possible (1751357) > > upgrading is strongly adviced. I had no time to update the key > so they will authenicate as 1.3 but respond to a hog call with 1.4.0 > > I'll hope to fix that soon, but not too soon :-) > > regards > > Chris > > > > _______________________________________________ > netrek-dev mailing list > netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev > From netrek at gmail.com Fri Jul 13 22:46:32 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 23:46:32 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] COW page? Message-ID: http://cow.netrek.org is gone Where is the COW page Kurt used to host? Is the content all gone? Zach From quozl at us.netrek.org Sun Jul 15 18:14:21 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 09:14:21 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] COW page? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070715231421.GA5915@us.netrek.org> On Fri, Jul 13, 2007 at 11:46:32PM -0400, Zach wrote: > http://cow.netrek.org is gone Yes. > Where is the COW page Kurt used to host? Is the content all gone? I've seen the content in the darcs repository that was derived from the CVS COW repository. You may restore it if you choose. Provide patches relative to the current darcs repository by preference. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From netrek at gmail.com Sun Jul 15 22:04:44 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 23:04:44 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] COW page? In-Reply-To: <20070715231421.GA5915@us.netrek.org> References: <20070715231421.GA5915@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: On 7/15/07, James Cameron wrote: > > I've seen the content in the darcs repository that was derived from the > CVS COW repository. You may restore it if you choose. Provide patches > relative to the current darcs repository by preference. Ok and where precisely is the old content so I can use it? Zach From quozl at us.netrek.org Mon Jul 16 00:52:23 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 15:52:23 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] COW page? In-Reply-To: References: <20070715231421.GA5915@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070716055223.GA10499@us.netrek.org> On Sun, Jul 15, 2007 at 11:04:44PM -0400, Zach wrote: > Ok and where precisely is the old content so I can use it? In the repositories. These don't have a precise location, each developer will have one, and some developers will have made them available. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From regrado at web.de Mon Jul 16 13:39:19 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 20:39:19 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] James dictator != James director?! Message-ID: <20070716183918.GD12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> ----- Forwarded message from James Cameron ----- > Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 10:16:42 +1100 > Subject: [netrek-dev] What is a borg? > > I've a few hats, so I'll put them on one by one. > > 1. server source maintainer, will take any patch that adds useful > features, but will resist changes to the amount of information the > server gives, since the network protocol is the primary > information barrier to prevent allegations of cheating. > > 2. client source maintainer, will take any patch that adds useful > features, will take any patch that brings the client up toward the > level of information provided by most other clients, but will > resist changes that draw conclusions from the packet stream in a > way that increases the information given to players by an order of > magnitude or more. > > 4. development community benevolent dictator, will accept merges > of source from previously divded efforts, so that the ideas are > centralised, and communication between potential contributors > increased ... that's why I want the Paradise server changes to > merge into the Vanilla source, yet be a configuration setting. > PARADISE=0 being the default. ----- End forwarded message ----- ... but at the same time you reject responsiblity and commitment to pick up or establish an official representative role to respond to requests as needed, make judgement calls more explicit and public to establish a "conforming client + server" system (technical and social) to extend your fairness to _all_ users independent of their client? Are you into a common netrek or just James Cameron netrek and don't care what others do? I thought we were trying to focus. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Mon Jul 16 13:38:18 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 20:38:18 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: James Cameron In-Reply-To: <20070620000202.GA4060@us.netrek.org> References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org> <20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org> <20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070620000202.GA4060@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070716183818.GC12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- James Cameron wrote on Wed 20.Jun'07 at 10:02:02 +1000 -= > On Tue, Jun 19, 2007 at 09:43:39PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > > =- James Quick wrote on Mon 18.Jun'07 at 9:07:39 +1000 -= > > I'm not sure what this "Quick" means. Check your translator. No idea anymore how this came to be, your entry here is quite old. > > Does this mean you want me to split the mail up for you to read > > 1 passage after the other? > > Yes, one issue at a time. I note you took 13 lines to ask that > question, yet I thought it was quite clear from what I originally > said. You claim you know everything there is to know about mail styles and yours is the only valid unconditionally? You're wrong, at least with the latter. There is no same advantage for everyone to do it your way. It just happens to work for you and some others, not all. For the former case I gave explanations justifying exceptions for this case which you might not have been aware of. If you prefer to ignore them unconditionally, then I wasn't aware of your attitude so far, I'm sorry for feeling the urge to explain to someone who doesn't care. > > What's that different than editing each passage on your own as > > time permits? > > I read hundreds of messages each day, yours are the largest and > most complex, and so you are at the limit of what is interesting > to respond to. > {...} > But if I get more than one or two mails from you each day, I'll > presume they are an attack and I will ignore them. Learn the pace. > > > {quoted from earlier reply: respond to open questions? } > > I will do so once you send small mails with a single issue in > them, like everybody else does. When you go monolithic, I ignore > you because of the high cost of answering. On the other hand, > please keep no more than one question open at a time. It's not my fault but rather yours if you refuse cooperation because you can't discipline yourself not to respond instantly and take your time to think about it before you respond. In particular since you failed to correct the style when it was your turn to respond. Why not follow your own advice of splitting up and adjusting subjects as needed when you had the chance? Why blame me for doing the same you did? Lead by good example. The items are still unanswered, try again better yourself. Besides, the time you saved by not responding to split up mails you can spend back on the big one: the amount of time doesn't change, just your perception. Neither changes the pace, if you take your time as required rather than hurry to answer instantly. Thoughtful responses are more useful than fast ones anyway. Nobody forces you to press the send button as soon as you finish reading a paragraph. You make things appear worse for you because you can't adjust your own pace for yourself, so you blame me instead? Doesn't compute. Maybe you shouldn't mix your daily business routine with your spare time, or acknowledge that you can't commit yourself as needed. OTOH, if you don't like big responses, don't make them yourself to ask me stuff and then refuse to react when I respond to you. I started as simple as possible while as detailed as necessary (which made it quite big), but you made it worse rather than better; I just reacted my "normal" way as you already have done to ask me back. > You should learn to be like others if you want to get your message > across. Exceptional cases call for exceptional means. If you don't acknowledge "exceptional", then I can't help you. If you don't care to learn, then I can't help you. I can only do what I can while explaining what I have to. If you want to cut it down so that you can continue your daily routine of little attention to each item, then this misses the point of dealing with complex matters adequately. If things were so simple I wouldn't have to explain. And things would just work on their own. But they don't. This reminds me: do you refuse changes because you _can't_ (low on time) or because you don't _want_ to change your habits (keep own current trek commitment level low)? Would you want to do more if you time permitted? On a side note: you have mistaken the "equal" as if I had asked to be treated so. In fact the "equal" applied to you, in the context that I asked all addressees(?) the same, despite having discussed the questions with you before in another form. So "equal" as in same form of questions and responses from the people listed. "Reasonable and constructive" means also understanding to approach things differently than being used to, i.e. not equal like others or before. > Communication is the responsibility of both parties; the > transmitter and receiver. If you think otherwise, then your > communication will be ignored. Correct. It was not my fault alone, yet you refuse to respond at least _your way_ (since you don't like mine). -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Mon Jul 16 13:37:30 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 20:37:30 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] Sorry for the wave of responses, read as time permits Message-ID: <20070716183730.GA12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Moin, I was too busy to answer earlier individually, but also it helped me sort my thoughts about the different responses before getting lost in separate side battles and too trigger happy responses from me, if I had responded as they came in. That's why I've withheld them until now. I'm sorry for the inconvenience that you had to wait for so long, and now get them all at once. My response behaviour will improve by mid August (hopefully). Until then I can't do it better, take it as it is. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Mon Jul 16 13:37:53 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 20:37:53 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: James Cameron In-Reply-To: <65631e800706201201n523763eetabbd9a59cd51f3d7@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org> <20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org> <20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <65631e800706201201n523763eetabbd9a59cd51f3d7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070716183753.GB12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- Jeffrey Watts wrote on Wed 20.Jun'07 at 14:01:36 -0500 -= >> Otherwise people focus on minor or even irrelevant details to turn >> attention away from the necessary issues and lose the big picture. > > You're encountering the same phenomenon for a different reason. > Your emails are so sprawling that folks zone out while reading > them and instead focus on the one thing that sticks out to them. > They then only respond to that one. This wasn't the case with James. It started out compact (with introduction and epilogue, but both could be skipped, added just for context). James then covered all at once (good) _and_ added more (even better, although in my "bad style"), but then complained that I responded in the same "bad style" he had continued before me. I can't help it that issues put in simple words don't mean the same for everybody and therefore need clarification, but also need patience and attention on the receiving/ requesting side when given. I prefer to give that rather than ignore requests. Should I give it up because the ideas don't get across at once or simple words or people don't know what they want? As it seems, you were able to understand my intentions. So my explanations were not totally beyond recognition. As for the others: when things are stuck, it needs change. Change requires commitment. If one can't provide it to even talk about it, then I'd prefer they'd make the way clear for somebody else to try. It blocks interest when the current powers want to stick to their authority but not take action. > You're calling for a lot of leadership and organization but I > think you fail to realize that you can't create this in a vacuum. James mentionend "vacuum", too, but why? I'm not the only subscriber, there is still a crowd around netrek, only that it is quiet (here on netrek-dev). Directors are not only about leadership and control, but moreso(?) commitment and pushing/ pulling things forward, in the simplest form by being informed and propagate updates for others to know. The rest of functionality would then practically come together, as a perspective for the future. But such activities/commitments are at risk of being wasted when they're not backed up by authority and support (somebody in the background holding a finger on the red button to break it when it comes to personal preference). Maybe you should think about them more like project leaders: a project can be planned before members get together, so they have to be found (even assigned), and _then_ once things are moving have an eye on them, too. > Those kinds of structures need to be created AFTER things start > moving, when the devs and admins start noticing that they're getting > bogged down in organizational issues and feel the need to > consolidate and coordinate to get things done. We're not there yet. Sure? Joe had been committing himself intensively (time and money) already for a long time, but it went mostly unnoticed until we accidently discovered that (when the mac client began?). There were waves of playnetrek.org players before, but that wasn't backed up by netrek.org or anyone/-thing else. Andrew has been working on the website + marketing, also with little awareness by the rest of the trek world. Client writers hacking independently next to each other (or even rivaling). Once in a while some brave idea/ effort pops up, but then fades away again. Some oldies are still lurking around, waiting for something to happen. Simply waiting for people to accidently stick around or get together in a common revival project didn't work either. Should we just keep sitting and waiting till Mars is in conjunction with Venus in the house of Neptune (and let single activities pass in the meantime)? When will participation / commitment happen? When somebody else does the required overhead work to prepare the big chunks in bite-sized pieces. We need to wag the dog. Much like campaigning among players we have to among contributors. Voluntarily little will happen, or else it would have had already. > I think your ideas have merit. I think they're valid concerns. I > think most of them are too early. ... "too early" ... or "too late"? I've already seen so much time pass and few lone attempts fail without significant change of state, wondering why. Now I know. > If I were you I'd start much simpler. Push for one or two changes > that will have short term benefits, and make a case for them. I > need to emphasize "short term". Keep them simple. D'oh, I thought I had: publicity, commitment/ participation. > Volunteer your efforts in something as a method of building > credibility. I thought I had as far as it was possible ... and time permitted, currently too busy to even respond faster. > Just don't get frustrated when others don't immediately share your > enthusiasm - you can easily go too far and alienate folks. I'm patient. Otherwise I wouldn't be still around. ;) If I went too far, people then shouldn't ask for more. Other than that, I'd like more participation, even if only signaling what they want or not, without doing some work for it themselves. "too far": we should get moving sometime at all. If nobody cares about netrek standards and cooperation anyway, so shouldn't I. Screw beloved balance, let chaos, sturgeon, and borg rule. ;) > Anyhow, I think you're doing a good job but I think you're a bit > overzealous and it's probably why you're getting some push-back on > your ideas. :) I do not express myself optimally every time, so I hope for constructive feedback when asked for it rather than denial because things grow or go too fast. It's not the ideas that are pushed back, but personal commitment beyond what currently is willed to be done or otherwise the game changing beyond their interest, therefore status quo. Don't want to change one or the other, what is left to change? -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Mon Jul 16 13:40:26 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 20:40:26 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] creating netrek authority In-Reply-To: <0qejjrkjlb.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <20070701152440.GF5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0qejjrkjlb.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <20070716184026.GG12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- Andrew K. Bressen wrote on Sun 1.Jul'07 at 15:30:24 -0400 -= > >> These are philosophical questions ... there is no authority, > >> there is no organisation, except that which we create. > > Rado S writes: > > Then why not create it? > > Doing so costs time and attention we do not have when our current > lack of it works just fine. ... "works just fine" with regard to what goal or route/ plan? Are there already noticable improvements of non volatile nature? Do we keep enough newbies to have lasting growth? (I'm sorry for being unaware, I was pretty busy the past month(s). Until recently I just learned a little from netrek-dev, and I didn't notice there any success reports beyond "hey, a full server" once in a long while.) Remember, in the other thread you said you need some more resources. Has this changed or will it change on its own? In the past one problem was that people weren't busy with netrek so it dropped in the background left alone on its own. Talking about it brings attention, ideas, and maybe enough momentum to produce participation. Having clearly defined organisation + roles (with responsibilities) and people filling them can mean more commitment and therefore output. Some people need that, they don't get moving on their own, they need external "push" signals as reminders for their own interest. Others don't like being pressed to live up to own promises or committing oneself in the 1st place, but then there is no point in coordination to achieve "fast" results to catch the hype of a new mac client, which was the original reason to call for changes (yours and mine). If the existing setup had been attractive enough, then people would already have contributed by now what we still miss. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Mon Jul 16 13:40:49 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 20:40:49 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] client control In-Reply-To: <0qfy47kjll.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <20070701152220.GE5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0qfy47kjll.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <20070716184048.GH12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- Andrew K. Bressen wrote on Sun 1.Jul'07 at 15:30:14 -0400 -= > Rado: > > I once said I like this simple limitation, but seeing my quoted > > example of phaser targeting aids this is too little, because > > this can't be controlled by the protocol, yet it is against the > > "fair game" concept where the core action is supposed to be > > performed by the human. > > If you feel the level of security isn't high enough, feel free to > suggest protocol architecture modifications and provide the > programmers to implement them. And by this, I mean specific > suggestions along the lines of "a det circle feature packet should > contain these bytes encrypted in this manner". Just saying "we're > not secure enough" when we don't even have the resources to fix > significant outstanding metaserver bugs is not constructive. The control level by the old RSA/blessing system would be sufficient for now, if only it would be consistently applied by a system of shared responsibility and control. The little bit of control can already keep many out, only leaving those with enough brain to break that. The more effort is required, the less people are willing to spend on it to break it. There will never be a 100% safe system, but this doesn't mean it should be left totally uncontrolled. The problem are not single cheaters (who'd be spotted by clued players if we had an always present number around), but the big numbers who'd begin redefining the game and forming a quasi/ de facto standard, breaking the so often called for balance, which netrek supposedly posseses (but is hollowed out by different client features). That's why we need an authority for definition and strict control, and a control system that separates writers and users from controlers. RSA is there, now it needs the will to make use of it as required. Once die hard cheaters persist breaking the simple control by blessing, new ideas have to be considered _then_. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Mon Jul 16 13:40:58 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 20:40:58 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] client control In-Reply-To: <20070702054513.GB10191@us.netrek.org> References: <20070701152220.GE5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070702054513.GB10191@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070716184058.GI12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- James Cameron wrote on Mon 2.Jul'07 at 15:45:13 +1000 -= > On Sun, Jul 01, 2007 at 05:22:20PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > > Raising the threshold just a little makes it harder for > > simpletons to just change a few simple things to give them an > > advantage and reduces the number of people capable of cheating, > > just because it isn't as easily possible anymore. > > I will not lie to the simpletons by creating a perception of security. You don't have to lie about it. Just state it as it is: it is not safe, but makes it harder. > I'd prefer to have simpletons rather than experts, attempting to > cheat, since it will be more obvious and detectable on average. A game cheater with open access to the code doesn't require hacker qualities. How would the cheating differ between experts and simpletons (among cheaters or hackers)? For example an aim or dodge correction (copying from the bots). > By lowering the threshold it makes it easier to notice cheating. And then do what? -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Mon Jul 16 13:42:45 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 20:42:45 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] Joe's and Andrew's plans? In-Reply-To: <0qd4zbkjj5.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <20070701145035.GD5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0qd4zbkjj5.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <20070716184245.GM12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- Andrew K. Bressen wrote on Sun 1.Jul'07 at 15:31:42 -0400 -= > > What exactly are you 2 up to, when it is apparently not only about > > the netrek.org relaunch (which was once meant to be run via wiki)? > > > > When will we see it? What can we do to help you? > > Rado, I spent a huge amount of time in December and January trying > to explain this to you. I'm sorry I failed to be able to > communicate it, but I really don't have the patience to try again. > I'll make it as simple as possible. > > What we're up to? We're working on the website. Thank you. I'm sorry for the confusion. I was aware (as you said, already half a year ago, that's a long time) of your efforts to take over netrek.org to update it since Erik left. Also that you want to join it with playnetrek.org. But at some point the context was lost and the vague "we're working on something" sounded as if you were doing much more/ other stuff than that, since it took/ takes so long without intermediate update reports. So, next to updating old info (maintenance), have you _added_ new functionality that didn't exist before (aside from link exchange)? I don't know what state Erik had left behind. I'm wondering what of the things you do could be the one Joe referred to as potentially having the greatest impact ever. > Websites are not about one kind of content. Wikis and static HTML > or dynamic PHP are not mutually exclusive. Wikis are good for some > things and bad at others. I attempt to use the best tool for the > job. Since we agree there, I'm looking forward to it (wiki in particular). Non-wiki pages are required only for permanently static stuff or permanently dynamic stuff like services by automatically processed external databases. Anything else can be run by wiki. So ... what must be non-wiki, what should become wiki? Maybe you can save some time by not dealing _now_ in php with what will eventually end up on the wiki anyway. > At the moment, our priorities are to merge playnetrek.org into > www.netrek.org without it negatively impacting our search engine > rankings or link exchange traffic. What search terms are you aiming for? > After that, we'd like to do a big advertising push and figure out > ways to market the game. Welcome, "director of web and marketing affairs". ;) > There's a lot of documentation still to write or revise. I've > repeatedly stated that help on this is welcome. Heh, you didn't react too enthusiastically when I did so for the topics that I can contribute to at the current stage, so I better wait for the wiki and see what I can do without interrupting your priorities. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Mon Jul 16 13:41:19 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 20:41:19 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek.org observations In-Reply-To: <0qabufkjiu.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <20070630155249.GD3128@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0qabufkjiu.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <20070716184119.GJ12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- Andrew K. Bressen wrote on Sun 1.Jul'07 at 15:31:53 -0400 -= > > http://www.netrek.org/servers/machines.php > > Please add paradise.homeunix.org (type Paradise), notes: > > I guarentee, though, that this is futile. > You aren't going to get any new players who bother with flipping > config file settings and entering the server on a command line. You're thinking on too short terms. Besides, it's for complete reference (as you already figured out yourself), not for promotion. That will happen differently. But some people might become curious when they stumble over it there, so let them have it. Re "futile", haven't you said there isn't any discrimination (and won't be)? Assigning "futile" is some discrimination. It's not only about meta-server entries, but also publicity and general access. > {...} and you can't get a blessed TT build, or even any TT build, > because you have no programmer resources. This might change soon, since we've run across a new pool of interested people. > Without being in a distribution, I see no other way you will > attract players to a game that doesn't have any unless you do > banner and google ads, which I very much doubt will happen. Patience, dude, patience. :) But that's a good point to correct soon. > Even though it's futile, and thus a waste of my/our limited > resources, I'll do it for the sake of fairness and completeness, > but please be aware of the costs of what you are asking; I don't > have enough time to do netrek stuff as it is. Thank you for now. If we'd have the wiki, I'd have done it myself if my time had permitted before. That's why I've been arguing in favour of it. Futility(?) depends on the viewpoint: you may not be in favour of its success. > Efforts need to be concentrated in the highest-return areas. Great, is there a rated list so we all can see what to focus in which order? Or at least, what you consider that way. > > Downloads: misses Paradise + TedTurner, add with notes that it > > can play both Paradise + Bronco. > > "There are a bunch of older clients (COW for Windows, BRMH and > TedTurner for Unixes including Mac OS X) available on the full > client download listing page." > > There are no current TT builds; every one of them is at least two > major OS revs back. There is no player base using this client. Well, original solaris blessed client still works, even on solaris 10. (I guess TT, too) How are they supposed to build a player base without a client? (chicken - egg) How has the windows player base begun? Without having a client first? (see also below for original client) > > - Ad p2k see above: "which means that the Netrek source code is > > freely available." http://www.netrek.org/downloads/clients/ Needs the previously mentioned qualifiers, too. > > - Ad TedTurner: I read Dave has added some patches recently to > > correct errors with torps, but I have no idea where he stored the > > code now... maybe you can clarify this with him to correct the link > > and propagate it to us. Well... I was assuming you had more personal contact to him than I did because of your nexus business, so I hoped you'd faster resolve this with him directly on a sidenote to your already existing exchange. But if I'm mistaken, then I'll ask him myself. > > - Ad Paradise missing: TT is just flashier, but basically they do > > the same. It's smaller/ leaner and therefore preference for some. > > Paradise still works fine like brmh. You listed TedTurner at the end, but not the original Paradise client. Add it below TT, too. There isn't only TT, don't ignore the original client (for bins + source). -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Mon Jul 16 13:42:26 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 20:42:26 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] resources, internal advertizing Message-ID: <20070716184225.GL12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> ----- message from "Andrew K. Bressen" ----- > Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 15:29:07 -0400 > Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] "rado to -dev translation gateway" > > > >> Right now we have a resource shortage, not an organization > >> shortage. > > > > Like what resource? > > Like the ones I've been trying to tell you about since December. > Players, Programmers, Sysadmins, Web developers. Players is the goal, we can't simply provide them. Web dev: you've taken it over already? What more do you need? Once the wiki is there, there will be some action. Sysadmins: what for? Aren't things already working fine? Programmers: ... well, to do what? The clients work/ the game is fine, no? > If you want to see the changes, set up a darcs repository for > yourself. When you want to see what's happened lately, update your > repo; you will be presented with change logs and patches you can > read. As much as we need outward advertizing, the same we need inward. You don't wait for players to stumble over or actively search for the homepage because they've been looking for it specifically to join. You or rather Joe goes to the places where the players are to catch in your ads nets those unaware/ lazy to actively search for trek on their own, but who might jump on some bait that happens to be attractive enough to take and small enough effort to risk a try. The same is required for potential helpers. Small steps can become a big help in total (wiki-idea). On average the community has the same share of commited and lazy folks as every other group. So potential contributors, too, have to be attracted and spoonfed (or nose pulled) for starters till they develop enough own commitment. > People in software development projects always dispute and have > personality issues; adding another organizational level increases, > not decreases, that overhead. We're progresssing slowly, but > definately progressing. Because of random chaos; But that's the problem ever since we're too low on active commitment: it's too slow. If it has been fast enough, why push Dave for web-access? Because letting the new wave of mac-newbies pass without adequate support would have been a pitiful loss, and the former web-admin left a vacuum behind for a too long time. The next single commitment will come again and might pass inefficiently because of lack of support in time. Having passive commitment from all the guys in the background (Dave, Bob, ...) is nice, but ... you've read yourself: they don't have the time (or will) to get more involved again. > Narcis wrote a Mac client, someone else is doing a Nokia port, I > rewrote a lot of webpages. Any of us bothering to vote on > directors would have just eaten more effort and detracted from > that progress. a) You wouldn't have had to vote, just cooperate with the directors. b) Voting is simple, if you know what you are up to. Acting likewise. c) The director's job (next to defining the game) is coordinator of and campaigner for those very efforts. For success you not only need the product but also a seller to sell it, to both customers and fellow workers to support you. > You seem to like Wikis. They mostly don't have directors, and make > a lot of progress. Their whole advantage is flexible > self-organization with easy access. Yet you miss the editors and owners in the background, who check stuff and ask for corrections when things go wrong (see spammers or other abuses of the _original_ intention for the wiki). You're free to do whatever you want, _within_ the limits strictly defined and controlled. They might be subject to interpretation to some degree, yet they clearly exist and are well known and checked. And that's exactly what I'm asking for netrek: the final authority and commitment to decisions and control, and the definitions about trek, on which they're based on. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Mon Jul 16 13:39:36 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 20:39:36 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] how the "director" idea started In-Reply-To: <20070702060847.GF10191@us.netrek.org> References: <20070701154925.GH5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070702060847.GF10191@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070716183935.GE12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- James Cameron wrote on Mon 2.Jul'07 at 16:08:47 +1000 -= > > Wow, I forgot about this answer, and now that I found it again, > > I wonder why you reacted the way you did [...] > > You can waste a lot of our time by analysing our reactions. I > advise against analysis. There is no way for you to know the > circumstances in which I've replied. That's why I'm asking you, who should know; I was only indicating interest to learn from you. > > What kind of reaction to this response of yours have you expected? > > I don't write a response based on expectations. Well, you wrote you were interested in an authority, you asked what I understood by it ("authority, support, enforce") and disclaimed sole responsibility but that there are others required to ask besides you. I picked up the idea to create it, I answered your questions, and I addressed the others I believed necessary to be asked. Don't ask for something when you don't want to deal with the answer. Especially don't use the form you later complain about. > I call a spade a spade. I suspect you cannot. Next question? ... but you appear as if calling once for a spade, next time for something else, effectively making no difference to you. Either you don't always call it a spade or you don't know what you want. Neither is useful. As well isn't when you call for improvements, but when asked how, then don't tell. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Mon Jul 16 13:41:27 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 20:41:27 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] RSA future Message-ID: <20070716184127.GK12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> ----- message from "Andrew K. Bressen" ----- > Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 15:29:07 -0400 > Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] "rado to -dev translation gateway" > > > I don't think anyone is talking about ditching the RSA system. > It was turned off on several servers during MacTrek's teething > pains, but I think it's back on on pickled and continuum. Ok. Then what's the point of RSA once it's back to "normal"? You asked in "client control" for specific solutions if I wasn't happy with the current system. The mechanical is sufficient (for my purpose), the social isn't yet. Allowing authors also to bless leaves it up to whom to decide what "legal" netrek is? Based on what? The loudest "borg" shouters? But maybe I'm unfair to you by mixing your opinions up with James' resistance to rely on it and reconstruct the blessing system around it (re "directors"). Should we keep blessing generally (once clients work with it smoothly)? What's your opinion about revising how blessing is managed? -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Mon Jul 16 13:40:03 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 20:40:03 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] creating netrek authority In-Reply-To: <20070702054823.GC10191@us.netrek.org> References: <20070701152440.GF5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070702054823.GC10191@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070716184002.GF12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- James Cameron wrote on Mon 2.Jul'07 at 15:48:23 +1000 -= > On Sun, Jul 01, 2007 at 05:24:40PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > > ----- Forwarded message from James Cameron ----- > > > These are philosophical questions ... there is no authority, > > > there is no organisation, except that which we create. > > This message you have quoted is from 19th December 2006, and it is > out of date. Things have changed since then. There is no point > answering your questions on this quoted message, since they are > built on sand. Oh sorry, fine, then enlighten me, as obviously I've missed the changes you consider obsoleting the quote. - How has the organisation changed to establish an authority to define netrek and control approved clients? - Where/ what/ who is the authority that has appeared since then? -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From jjadeinc at hotmail.com Mon Jul 16 15:18:44 2007 From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 15:18:44 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] Joe's and Andrew's plans? In-Reply-To: <20070716184245.GM12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: >From: Rado S > >What search terms are you aiming for? > Looking to keep the rankings playnetrek.org has already earned in place so they can be transferred to netrek.org. In the past three years I have worked with and fine tuned keyword lists with both keyword advertising and search engines. The keywords that have been found to attract the most players are what will be used with SEO on netrek.org and our promotional push once everything is setup. -Joe _________________________________________________________________ Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!? http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_hotmailtextlink2 From narcis at luky.nl Mon Jul 16 16:19:19 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 23:19:19 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-dev Digest, Vol 29, Issue 17 and 18 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: *decloaking* my my, since when did my subscription move to netrek-opinions? i thought this was the dev list. *cloaking* From netrek at gmail.com Mon Jul 16 16:37:58 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 17:37:58 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-dev Digest, Vol 29, Issue 17 and 18 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: heh, phaser hit, plasma :) zach On 7/16/07, Narcis wrote: > *decloaking* > > my my, > > since when did my subscription move to netrek-opinions? i thought > this was the dev list. > > *cloaking* > > _______________________________________________ > netrek-dev mailing list > netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev > From netrek at gmail.com Mon Jul 16 16:36:20 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 17:36:20 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Joe's and Andrew's plans? In-Reply-To: References: <20070716184245.GM12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: On 7/16/07, Joe Evango wrote: > > The keywords that have been found to attract the most > players are what will be used with SEO on netrek.org and our promotional > push once everything is setup. What is SEO? Zach From jjadeinc at hotmail.com Mon Jul 16 16:52:23 2007 From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 16:52:23 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] Joe's and Andrew's plans? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: Zach >What is SEO? > search engine optimization _________________________________________________________________ http://newlivehotmail.com From jrd at gerdesas.com Mon Jul 16 16:56:21 2007 From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 16:56:21 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] Joe's and Andrew's plans? In-Reply-To: References: <20070716184245.GM12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070716215621.GA23285@mail.beanhq.com> On Mon, Jul 16, 2007 at 05:36:20PM -0400, Zach wrote: > > What is SEO? "google -> seo -> return" John -- "I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones." As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to be put through to an engineer. "My other computer is your windows box." Ralf Hildebrandt trying to play sturgeon while it's under attack is apparently not fun. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070716/6cf3b2d7/attachment.pgp From quozl at us.netrek.org Wed Jul 18 04:43:22 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 19:43:22 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: James Cameron In-Reply-To: <20070716183753.GB12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org> <20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org> <20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <65631e800706201201n523763eetabbd9a59cd51f3d7@mail.gmail.com> <20070716183753.GB12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070718094322.GC3333@us.netrek.org> On Mon, Jul 16, 2007 at 08:37:53PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > I can't help it that issues put in simple words don't mean the same > for everybody and therefore need clarification, but also need > patience and attention on the receiving/ requesting side when given. You can help it. It is your responsibility as well as ours. Simple words do not have a common meaning. But it takes more round trips during communication than you have been willing to give. By batching your replies you make this clarification impractical. Limit yourself to small doses of communication, regularly. You must learn the words to use, and the only way to do that is to correct your words. > I thought I had as far as it was possible ... and time permitted, > currently too busy to even respond faster. If you are too busy, then leave this task for later, otherwise in your haste you may hurt yourself. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From quozl at us.netrek.org Wed Jul 18 04:45:43 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 19:45:43 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: James Cameron In-Reply-To: <20070716183818.GC12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org> <20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org> <20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070620000202.GA4060@us.netrek.org> <20070716183818.GC12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070718094543.GD3333@us.netrek.org> I've' lost the context of this discussion thread, and was unable to recover the context from what you sent. Could you please ask the question again? -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From quozl at us.netrek.org Wed Jul 18 04:53:37 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 19:53:37 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] James dictator != James director?! In-Reply-To: <20070716183918.GD12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <20070716183918.GD12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070718095337.GE3333@us.netrek.org> On Mon, Jul 16, 2007 at 08:39:19PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > ... but at the same time you reject responsiblity and commitment to > pick up or establish an official representative role [...] Yes, I reject any responsibility to you to pick up or establish an official representative role. Not sure what you mean by commitment, but I guess you meant "lack commitment". Then you go on to define the role: > to respond to requests as needed, > make judgement calls more explicit and public to establish a > "conforming client + server" system (technical and social) > to extend your fairness to _all_ users independent of their client? That's an fascinating role. It would involve quite a lot of work and challenge. The role would be sociological and political. Have you anyone available to fill this role? The role does not interest me. Maybe you should ask Zach? > Are you into a common netrek or just James Cameron netrek and don't > care what others do? I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean by that question. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From quozl at us.netrek.org Wed Jul 18 04:55:27 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 19:55:27 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] how the "director" idea started In-Reply-To: <20070716183935.GE12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <20070701154925.GH5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070702060847.GF10191@us.netrek.org> <20070716183935.GE12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070718095527.GF3333@us.netrek.org> On Mon, Jul 16, 2007 at 08:39:36PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > That's why I'm asking you, who should know; I was only indicating > interest to learn from you. Too long ago to remember now. > Don't ask for something when you don't want to deal with the answer. > Especially don't use the form you later complain about. Sorry, but I don't remember the question now. > ... but you appear as if calling once for a spade, next time for > something else, effectively making no difference to you. Sorry, but consistency is not one of my attributes. > As well isn't when you call for improvements, but when asked how, > then don't tell. I don't recall calling for improvements. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From quozl at us.netrek.org Wed Jul 18 04:57:21 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 19:57:21 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] creating netrek authority In-Reply-To: <20070716184002.GF12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <20070701152440.GF5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070702054823.GC10191@us.netrek.org> <20070716184002.GF12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070718095721.GG3333@us.netrek.org> On Mon, Jul 16, 2007 at 08:40:03PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > Oh sorry, fine, then enlighten me, as obviously I've missed the > changes you consider obsoleting the quote. This is probably true. > - How has the organisation changed to establish an authority to > define netrek and control approved clients? Four of us agreed to begin to set policy. I don't have the exact date, is it important? > - Where/ what/ who is the authority that has appeared since then? Carlos, Dave, Karthik and myself, in private communication. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From quozl at us.netrek.org Wed Jul 18 05:03:35 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 20:03:35 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] client control In-Reply-To: <20070716184058.GI12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <20070701152220.GE5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070702054513.GB10191@us.netrek.org> <20070716184058.GI12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070718100335.GH3333@us.netrek.org> On Mon, Jul 16, 2007 at 08:40:58PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > =- James Cameron wrote on Mon 2.Jul'07 at 15:45:13 +1000 -= > > > I will not lie to the simpletons by creating a perception of security. > > You don't have to lie about it. > Just state it as it is: it is not safe, but makes it harder. No, I don't accept that. "Harder" is such a relative concept. Therefore saying that would be too close to lying for my comfort. > > I'd prefer to have simpletons rather than experts, attempting to > > cheat, since it will be more obvious and detectable on average. > > A game cheater with open access to the code doesn't require > hacker qualities. If by hacker you mean expert, then yes, that is true. > How would the cheating differ between experts and simpletons (among > cheaters or hackers)? For example an aim or dodge correction > (copying from the bots). It would differ in complexity. > > By lowering the threshold it makes it easier to notice cheating. > > And then do what? Eject, ban, ridicule, post multi-line macros, or avoid. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From quozl at us.netrek.org Wed Jul 18 05:11:16 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 20:11:16 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] RSA future In-Reply-To: <20070716184127.GK12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <20070716184127.GK12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070718101116.GI3333@us.netrek.org> On Mon, Jul 16, 2007 at 08:41:27PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > Allowing authors also to bless leaves it up to whom to decide what > "legal" netrek is? Based on what? The loudest "borg" shouters? Back when RSA was in heavy use, the loudest shouters were indeed those who set the policy. Which in the absence of a social mechanism or leadership, or deliberative assembly, is how any group behaves. Only if such a social mechanism works can the technical mechanism have any significant effect. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From msucka0xff at programmer.net Wed Jul 18 11:25:24 2007 From: msucka0xff at programmer.net (. .) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 08:25:24 -0800 Subject: [netrek-dev] creating netrek authority Message-ID: <20070718162524.D28ED1BF28D@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> One alternative we may consider would be mediation from outside FOSS admins if it facilitates forward progress. Of course we'd need to agree on selecting which FOSS and which admin(s)... ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Cameron" To: "Netrek Development Mailing List" Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] creating netrek authority Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 19:57:21 +1000 On Mon, Jul 16, 2007 at 08:40:03PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > Oh sorry, fine, then enlighten me, as obviously I've missed the > changes you consider obsoleting the quote. This is probably true. > - How has the organisation changed to establish an authority to > define netrek and control approved clients? Four of us agreed to begin to set policy. I don't have the exact date, is it important? > - Where/ what/ who is the authority that has appeared since then? Carlos, Dave, Karthik and myself, in private communication. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ _______________________________________________ netrek-dev mailing list netrek-dev at us.netrek.org http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev -- We've Got Your Name at http://www.mail.com! Get a FREE E-mail Account Today - Choose From 100+ Domains -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070718/c98bec6c/attachment-0001.htm From netrek at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 17:36:24 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 18:36:24 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] creating netrek authority In-Reply-To: <20070718162524.D28ED1BF28D@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20070718162524.D28ED1BF28D@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: On 7/18/07, . . wrote: > > One alternative we may consider would be mediation from outside FOSS admins > if it facilitates forward progress. Of course we'd need to agree on > selecting which FOSS and which admin(s)... You mean an FOSS admin would volunteer to direct the Vanilla project? I never heard of this before. Why would they do this if they have no interest in or connection with netrek? Zach From msucka0xff at programmer.net Wed Jul 18 17:41:49 2007 From: msucka0xff at programmer.net (. .) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 14:41:49 -0800 Subject: [netrek-dev] creating netrek authority Message-ID: <20070718224149.8AE981BF2B1@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> it's not inconceiveable. take someone known for contributing to an open source project like apache, ask them to help make a make a decision, and if they agree to help, both sides present their arguments and counter arguments, then the arbiter decides. ----- Original Message ----- From: Zach To: "Netrek Development Mailing List" Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] creating netrek authority Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 18:36:24 -0400 On 7/18/07, . . wrote: > > One alternative we may consider would be mediation from outside FOSS admins > if it facilitates forward progress. Of course we'd need to agree on > selecting which FOSS and which admin(s)... You mean an FOSS admin would volunteer to direct the Vanilla project? I never heard of this before. Why would they do this if they have no interest in or connection with netrek? Zach _______________________________________________ netrek-dev mailing list netrek-dev at us.netrek.org http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev -- We've Got Your Name at http://www.mail.com! Get a FREE E-mail Account Today - Choose From 100+ Domains -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070718/21db5d4c/attachment.htm From msucka0xff at programmer.net Wed Jul 18 17:46:25 2007 From: msucka0xff at programmer.net (. .) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 14:46:25 -0800 Subject: [netrek-dev] Eradicating open proxy attacks on servers Message-ID: <20070718224625.3D5731BF2B1@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> See http://wiki.blitzed.org/BOPM According to modemhero, as I understand it, his server was being flooded with proxy server/tor style bogus connects causing legit users to be blocked from connecting. One possible solution is integrating something IRC servers have used to eradicate these types of attacks. How does it work? When a client connects to the IRC server, BOPM scans the client for open proxies. It then determines whether they are really open by using them to connect back to the server. -- We've Got Your Name at http://www.mail.com! Get a FREE E-mail Account Today - Choose From 100+ Domains -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070718/a459c9bc/attachment.htm From quozl at us.netrek.org Wed Jul 18 18:16:16 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 09:16:16 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] creating netrek authority In-Reply-To: References: <20070718162524.D28ED1BF28D@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <20070718231616.GB3833@us.netrek.org> On Wed, Jul 18, 2007 at 06:36:24PM -0400, Zach wrote: > You mean an FOSS admin would volunteer to direct the Vanilla project? Yes, that is one possibility. > I never heard of this before. Why would they do this if they have no > interest in or connection with netrek? It could be in their goals. They could even be paid for it. Unfortunately I don't know any organisation or volunteers for this role either. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From netrek at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 23:22:27 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 00:22:27 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Eradicating open proxy attacks on servers In-Reply-To: <20070718224625.3D5731BF2B1@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20070718224625.3D5731BF2B1@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: On 7/18/07, . . wrote: > See http://wiki.blitzed.org/BOPM > > According to modemhero, as I understand it, his server was being flooded > with proxy server/tor style bogus connects causing legit users to be blocked > from connecting. One possible solution is integrating something IRC servers > have used to eradicate these types of attacks. > > How does it work? > > When a client connects to the IRC server, BOPM scans the client for open > proxies. It then determines whether they are really open by using them to > connect back to the server. Yes I noticed freenode.net does this for their IRC servers. Zach From netrek at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 23:30:31 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 00:30:31 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] creating netrek authority In-Reply-To: <20070718224149.8AE981BF2B1@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20070718224149.8AE981BF2B1@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: On 7/18/07, . . wrote: > it's not inconceiveable. take someone known for contributing to an open > source project like apache, ask them to help make a make a decision, and if > they agree to help, both sides present their arguments and counter > arguments, then the arbiter decides. Oh I see. Zach From niclas at acc.umu.se Thu Jul 19 02:20:01 2007 From: niclas at acc.umu.se (Niclas Fredriksson) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 09:20:01 +0200 (MEST) Subject: [netrek-dev] Clever suggestion Message-ID: Is there a FOCS list for the server development? I have a suggestion for whoever's working on the server code. I'd like to see a better countdown to timercide. Right now we get a message at the 30 minute mark and at the 15 minute mark (maybe it's a few more, I've been up all night playing so I'm not very sharp right now). I'd like to see one every minute from T-5m and then in the last minute I'd like to see it at T-50s, T-40s, T-30s, T-20s, T-10s and T-(9-1)s (that is at every second the last ten seconds). Like INL end game. I think that would make timercides even more fun and intriguing. -- Niclas From netrek at gmail.com Thu Jul 19 03:46:18 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 04:46:18 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Clever suggestion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I agree. Zach On 7/19/07, Niclas Fredriksson wrote: > Is there a FOCS list for the server development? > > I have a suggestion for whoever's working on the server code. I'd like to > see a better countdown to timercide. Right now we get a message at the 30 > minute mark and at the 15 minute mark (maybe it's a few more, I've been up > all night playing so I'm not very sharp right now). I'd like to see one > every minute from T-5m and then in the last minute I'd like to see it at > T-50s, T-40s, T-30s, T-20s, T-10s and T-(9-1)s (that is at every second > the last ten seconds). Like INL end game. I think that would make > timercides even more fun and intriguing. > > -- Niclas > > _______________________________________________ > netrek-dev mailing list > netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev > From quozl at us.netrek.org Thu Jul 19 08:47:48 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 23:47:48 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] Clever suggestion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070719134748.GA25236@us.netrek.org> I agree, let it be so. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From niclas at acc.umu.se Thu Jul 19 10:10:20 2007 From: niclas at acc.umu.se (Niclas Fredriksson) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 17:10:20 +0200 (MEST) Subject: [netrek-dev] Clever suggestion In-Reply-To: <20070719134748.GA25236@us.netrek.org> References: <20070719134748.GA25236@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jul 2007, James Cameron wrote: > I agree, let it be so. Great. Also it would be great if the "time" command on the non-INL server could show seconds and not only minutes. -- Niclas From regrado at web.de Fri Jul 20 15:28:59 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 22:28:59 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] creating netrek authority In-Reply-To: <20070718095721.GG3333@us.netrek.org> References: <20070701152440.GF5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070702054823.GC10191@us.netrek.org> <20070716184002.GF12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070718095721.GG3333@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070720202859.GB25092@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- James Cameron wrote on Wed 18.Jul'07 at 19:57:21 +1000 -= > > - How has the organisation changed to establish an authority to > > define netrek and control approved clients? > > Four of us agreed to begin to set policy. That's great news, at last. > I don't have the exact date, is it important? Need not be exact to the minute, but day, week, month, yes, because if it was made public by one of you at some point in _any_ way, I'd like to track down _how_ I missed that. If it wasn't made public, why not? My awareness of that could have avoided all the annoyances and/ because of mis- understandings in the past 3-4 months, if I would have known about it earlier; it all started and was about the _apparent_ lack of it. > > - Where/ what/ who is the authority that has appeared since then? > > Carlos, Dave, Karthik and myself, in private communication. I see privacy helps keeping the noise out, but are there some results made public for everyone to know what you guys are up to? If not yet, when? -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From quozl at us.netrek.org Fri Jul 20 19:21:47 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 10:21:47 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] creating netrek authority In-Reply-To: <20070720202859.GB25092@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <20070701152440.GF5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070702054823.GC10191@us.netrek.org> <20070716184002.GF12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070718095721.GG3333@us.netrek.org> <20070720202859.GB25092@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070721002147.GB5517@us.netrek.org> On Fri, Jul 20, 2007 at 10:28:59PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > Need not be exact to the minute, but day, week, month, yes, because > if it was made public by one of you at some point in _any_ way, I'd > like to track down _how_ I missed that. You weren't watching, apparently. It was mentioned in #netrek. Keep reading those logs. > If it wasn't made public, why not? Well, firstly, I can't speak for the council, so I can't announce the existence of the council, it would have to be a motion of the council to do so. Secondly, even if I did want to bypass that process, the last thing I'd want to do is tell *you*. Now that I've seen how you respond, this confirms my hesitation. > I see privacy helps keeping the noise out, but are there some > results made public for everyone to know what you guys are up to? Good point. > If not yet, when? Good point. You'd have to ask the council these questions. They aren't interesting enough for me to bring them to council. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From jrd at gerdesas.com Sat Jul 21 13:25:57 2007 From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 13:25:57 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] creating netrek authority In-Reply-To: <20070720202859.GB25092@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <20070701152440.GF5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070702054823.GC10191@us.netrek.org> <20070716184002.GF12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070718095721.GG3333@us.netrek.org> <20070720202859.GB25092@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070721182557.GR17225@mail.beanhq.com> On Fri, Jul 20, 2007 at 10:28:59PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > > My awareness of that could have avoided all the annoyances and/ > because of mis- understandings in the past 3-4 months, if I would > have known about it earlier; it all started and was about the > _apparent_ lack of it. This was made known to you in #netrek some time ago. Well before your most recent flood of posts. John -- "I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones." As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to be put through to an engineer. "My other computer is your windows box." Ralf Hildebrandt trying to play sturgeon while it's under attack is apparently not fun. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070721/70557562/attachment.pgp From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jul 31 04:31:41 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 09:31:41 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: something along the lines of giving a two week window for identifying certain areas of responsibility, replacing people who have volunteered their time and made numerous contributions to Netrek for many years and restructuring the Netrek community. I believe a majority of the people you asked for responses from have responded. They may not have given the answers you wanted but they did respond. The ideas you presented several months ago for restructuring would require a tremendous amount of community support which I do not sense there is. Were there additional pieces that I missed? -Joe _________________________________________________________________ More photos, more messages, more storage?get 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507