From carlos at jpl.nasa.gov  Mon Jun  4 00:09:23 2007
From: carlos at jpl.nasa.gov (Carlos Y. Villalpando)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 22:09:23 -0700
Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: Dave Ahn, James Cameron,
	Kurt Siegl, Bob	Tanner, Carlos Villalpando and server admins
In-Reply-To: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20070604050923.GB2144@carlos-desktop>

Quoting Rado S <regrado at web.de>:


> 	- meta-server: Carlos

Well, of only metaserver2, and the KEYGOD role and it's associtated
clientkeys.netrek.org alias.

> 	- SF project: Dave, Kurt, James, Carlos, Bob
> 	- SF Paradise: Dave (+ Bob Glamm, but subscribed here?)

Aren't these long abandoned, now?

--Carlos V.



From netrek at gmail.com  Sun Jun 10 17:28:56 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 18:28:56 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] darcs
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0706101528g61339451n206fc9718f512450@mail.gmail.com>

A darcs client written in common lisp:
http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-darcs/

"Understanding darcs" a wiki guide
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Understanding_darcs

Zach


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Tue Jun 12 05:17:23 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 20:17:23 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] lurk.py, netrek observer client for t-mode waiting
Message-ID: <20070612101723.GA21384@us.netrek.org>

G'day,

Announcing the netrek lurk program, which can be used to wait for t-mode
on a server, by using an observer slot, while displaying game messages
on a text console.

Download the program from
http://james.tooraweenah.com/darcs/netrek-client-cow/lurk.py

md5sum faa02f683cd4b9800571e97bb6621fa6

Usage instructions are in the start of the file.  Edit the configuration
variables to your requirement and then start the program, for example:

	lurk.py pickled.netrek.org

Patches welcome, relative to my darcs repository,
http://james.tooraweenah.com/darcs/netrek-client-cow/

The program can also be trivially adapted to obtain the MOTD of a server
and then exit.

Not yet tested on a server with an observer wait queue.

Only tested on Linux.  Should work on Windows and MAC OS X provided
there is a Python environment.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/
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From karthik at karthik.com  Tue Jun 12 11:42:43 2007
From: karthik at karthik.com (Karthik Arumugham)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 12:42:43 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] lurk.py, netrek observer client for t-mode waiting
In-Reply-To: <20070612101723.GA21384@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070612101723.GA21384@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <9F6D2FFC-E17B-4ACD-BD42-90C41F76B1DC@karthik.com>

On Jun 12, 2007, at 6:17 AM, James Cameron wrote:

> Only tested on Linux.  Should work on Windows and MAC OS X provided
> there is a Python environment.

I can confirm that this works on Mac OS X with no modifications.  
Tested both with the Python 2.3.5 installation included with 10.4.x,  
and with Python 2.5.1 installed from Fink.


From regrado at web.de  Sun Jun 17 08:22:43 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 15:22:43 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] [PARADISE-WORKERS] stay true to Paradise,
	make no Bronco clone	(was: ideas)
In-Reply-To: <20070612223315.GC27279@mail.beanhq.com>
Message-ID: <20070617132242.GC4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

Cross-posted to netrek-dev from paradise-workers, when you respond
take care where you want it to go (might need to subscribe before).

=- John R. Dennison wrote on Tue 12.Jun'07 at 17:33:15 -0500 -=

> > {...} but even in Bronco only the planets' positions are
> > (roughly, not identically?) the same, their facilities change
> > (random).
> 
> Planets are always in the same position. Resources change at every
> galaxy reset.

You mean as in _exactly_ the same x-y coord in the universe, or
just roughly relatively to other planets?
Are the relative coords the same for each race? Otherwise this can
mean an advantage, too, where does balance end?

BTW, balance of what against what?
Total balance (fairness, if you mean that with it) requires
_identical_ conditions for both sides of a comparison.
What do you compare, and how can you compare complex things as
different ship types, planet positions and equipment, and individual
skill differences?
At best you can provide identical startup resources and positions
like in chess, but that's not everyone's favourite game for fun.

> > > { why paranoid Bronco players detest Paradise }
> > 
> > Bronco is just the preference of the most unflexible yet most
> > vocal perfectionists, fanatically keeping out every disturbance
> > from _their_ perfect world.
> > Their vocality(?) however is not reflecting their relative numbers.
> 
> 	And you /still/ don't get it do you, Rado?
> The issue was, and still remains, the fact that after 15+ years
> bronco is balanced. It has nothing to do with anything other then
> balance.

Then you don't get it: what Bronco (or trek in general with all its
variants) needs is not more _balance_, but more players getting
hooked up as starters in a shorter time than they used to before.

Balance is tied to a goal/ ideal state you want to reach.
It might be for example a preferred game-/ strategy style or skills
set, but this need not be everyone's preference (goal).

 Veteran players need much balance because details change the outcome.
 Beginners don't need perfect balance, as long as it isn't utterly
broken.
 They need something to hook up with. Paradise offers there more
than Bronco.

Balance alone doesn't make a game more fun to play.
If I had the choice as _STARTER_ (not the oldies the 2 of us are) to
choose between the best balanced Bronco as we have it now and
Paradise as it was, I'd still play Paradise, despite my similarly
big desire _NOW_ to have a balanced game in the long run when the
simple pickup games with all the newbs get boring (or annoying).
 When fun-by-appeal gets boring, advance to next level of balanced
play as seen in Bronco (even pickup, but more the leagues).

To like Bronco is hard when you don't agree with the views (yet).
People want to figure out and discover what suits them best, not
being told with a straight-jacket. In that case you only have the
choice between "I like it" or "I don't" -> lost forever.
With Paradise (in its diversity alone and other trek variants)
people can still stay with the trek-world until they meet Bronco.

Bronco _appears_ more straight jacketed, even if it means the same
fun as (or even more than) Paradise.
	BTW, in a constant environment like Bronco a limited set of
	skills is required to succeed, and to improve success you
	can improve only those. If you fail, fun is limited.

	In Paradise's ever changing env the usual Bronco skills
	still apply, but others, too, and 1 meta-skill is even more
	dominant: adapt to the environment _each_ time you play.

	That's what perfectionsts have given up, and that's why they
	don't like Paradise: they don't want to give up their
	already accumulated skills to _start over_ with other/ more
	skills and suck all the time while they believe to deserve
	to rule with their existing skills based on static features
	they know by heart.

What's the gain to have the best balanced game ever when too few
stick to it to even arrive at discussing balance?!

Bronco's appeal is the simplicity (and therefore easier balance) of
the past, but today "more" is asked for and can be provided than
what Bronco offers for entry.

> > Re bronco-style: it's just an _arbitrary_ preference of the
> > self-righteous stubborn crowd sticking to _their_ "high ideals"
> > of perfect game, ignoring the demands of the entry level
> > players, which is what we need (at least Paradise).
> 
> And again, you just don't get it. And, speaking for one of the
> members of that 'self-righteous stubborn crowd' I take particular
> exception to being labled as such.

"exception"?

> I will be forwarding this message on to others in that crowd too
> so they can see exactly how you feel. I expect James, Karth and
> the others will enjoy reading it, also.

No problem with that, it was a public msg, I'm not speaking with
split tongue. But maybe you've mistaken above paragraphs to mean all
Bronco players are such fanatics/ extremists; while I mean that some
have such an attitude due to their limited view that what they like
is the best game and should be the only played (in trek-world),
which can only survive by eliminating its descendants before they
can become bigger than their beloved game to benefit from it, too,
and this game happens to be Bronco.

I was thinking primarily of Gerdesas in #netrek and like minded
folks anywhere else. I haven't seen James with such an extremist/
fanatic and ignorantly short-sighted attitude forcing every other
game flavour into submission hoping that those loving other variants
would begin to love what is left once what they really love is
banned.
 Those times have passed, they move on to other things they like.
It would have more potential to let them take their time to learn
about Bronco _afterwards_ than kicking them away forever right from
the start.

> > When you have a small community, splitting it up kills it. So we
> > should learn from the past and focus on a common, but high-fun
> > level.
> 
> 	Bingo!  My god!  You actually understand that?

I understood that all the time, only the direction where it should
go differs. I don't feel like sticking to utopical dreams of
perfectly suited players to stumble over "high-end" Bronco in masses
to stay, in its current state.
I see more potential for Paradise to be the bait and later pass the
elite on to Bronco.

> Had we a decent sized player base it would be different. But we
> /don't/. Even with the work with marketing and advertising that
> Joe Evango has done over the past 12-18 months our player base is
> small.

That's exactly why something _else_/ _more_ has to change. Get it?
Not only expand the offer of flavours, but also join the time
resources of both camps for common good.

BTW, the "not split up" was related to the Paradise-Community.
If you had understood your own statement, you'd have known that we
need to _cooperate_ among variant-communities to get more total, not
fight each other to assimilate into the own camp from the other
(which doesn't work well anyway generally, but even less so because
Paradise currently doesn't _have_ all that many yet to steal from ;).

> 	Here's a hint: if bronco dies, so do /all/ other variants.

I see better chances for Paradise to recover and _both_ succeed
because of this than for Bronco to survive on its own.

Remember: Paradise is a _superset_ of Bronco (just another galaxy
generator). If Bronco died, it might see a revival via Paradise
later, too, even without the die hard Bronconians.

> > I want to have fun by playing the game, winning/ losing isn't
> > the #1 factor in it, as long as there is occasional success.
> 
> It's a team game, Rado. The original developers designed it as a
> /team/ game. Team games are meant to be won.

So are single player games, you're missing the point.
Games are designed to be fun, for all winners and losers.
Or rather, if they _were_, they'd have more people loving them.
That's what we want, no?

> 'league quality'? If bronco can't support more then 1-2 clue games
> a week, what in the world makes you think paradise will have
> /anything/ similar to league quality?

a) I didn't mean exclusively Paradise league. Paradise is just the
hook-up for the advanced games, be they P or even "only" Bronco league.

b) I'm patient to consider this _long_ term goals. Given the wide
perspective on the past, it isn't worse than sticking around with
stagnation in trek-world for such a long time so far.

> Note that I am not making reference to paradise players
> specifically, but to the game as a whole.

I see both leagues happen again, if we worked together.

> > You definitely should have been on netrek-dev when I ticked off
> > the crowd there with that very issue. :)
> > (can still be seen in the archives)
> 
> 	I told you the response you would get.

Yes, but what you promised didn't turn out.
(sadly neither what I hoped for, but we'll see)

> You made threats in that message;

Threat what to happen?
Taking away control from those not using their power to execute it?
A power-vacuum is worse than bad power.
If it's bad, you know what to do; but when you don't know, you waste
time waiting for single effects to make their way through the fog of
war and to change everything on their own.
Possible, but (very?) unlikely, as we've seen so far.

> you expect people to react any other way?

James already did fine, the others might once their questions are
cleared up.

> Who are /you/ to state that resources will be replaced if they
> don't fit your guidelines or requirements?

I'm one of many asking for progress.
Progress requiring (re-)organisation (view shared by others, too).

> As far as that goes, what have you ever contributed back to the
> community as a whole? Anything? Anything at all?

Why has that any relevance to the validity of my words?
1+1==2, no history needed for that.

> While my contributions may be minor at least I /do/ contribute and
> give something back. I am one of 4-5 people actively trying to
> /save/ netrek as a whole.

See "short-sighted" and "ignorant" above.
You wouldn't recognize allies even if they'd bite you in the ass.

> You expect that /not/ to piss people off and not to alienate them?

Of course I _do_, but that's more because of the complexity of the
matter and lack of time to deal with it appropriately (which _is_
the actual matter) rather than anything else.

> If this message offends any of the developers that have put time
> and effort into bringing paradise back I would like to apologize
> to you. This message, like others of Rado's, have irritated me at
> a very low level for a long time.

No worries, that's your problem with my views differing a lot from
yours, nothing else, people can distinguish that (or better yet
speak for themselves).

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From regrado at web.de  Sun Jun 17 08:22:21 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 15:22:21 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback,
	some answers to #netrek questions
In-Reply-To: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20070617132221.GB4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

As some people didn't have the proper context, here some answers to
questions in #netrek:

> - joee1: Is that part of what was already being discussed or
> something completely different?

Yes, it's an attempt to summarize what has been discussed before in
long and wide-dispersed threads, which too often have gone off-topic
for the threads at hand but didn't answer the original issue.

> Basic_py: I saw no obvious question(s) in the posting.

The questions are marked with '?'.
The questions are simple, but make no sense without the context and
explanation provided below each of them and at the end (and all the
threads that occured before, which you might have ignored altogether).

> Basic_py: any purpose, {...} What is the problem Rado is
> attempting to address?

The problem:
- structure and leadership is unclear (no final authority),
- people fight at different fronts (more or less independently),
- they are not coordinated as well as they could be.
- progress propagation can be improved for people to hook up.

This includes to make it easier for developers to work together
(keywords compatibility and borg when everybody is allowed to do
whatever he wants to cheat or break something), make it easier for
players to get into trek games (again keyword borg, but different
facet from the previous), no authority to direct and supervise
coordination and define standard and enforce it.

The suggested solution: establish such role of authority to shorten
reaction times and have definitions for official trek variants (for
fairness by authorized clients), with a suggested procedural
framework how it might work.

> modemhero: rados means well, just sometimes his posts are rambling
> stream of thought and need to be filtered. this last one wasn't
> quite understandable
> 
> Basic_py: my idea of short post and his are very different :-)

Ok, I mean _shorter_ than the dispersed threads.

 Meta-trek _is_ a complex issue, you can't put it in simple words of
a single sentence to which you simply can say yes/no, you need
_some_ context, which I tried to give in the simplest possible form
while at the same time providing all relevant info.

Leaving out parts would open speculation that this might have not
been thought of, being open to arbitrariness, which it shouldn't be
unless explicitely desired.

Separating parts to make eMails shorter for you to read would break
the overall context: focusing on just a selection will cause
imbalance with the rest, it only works together.

> several: Rado is stirring up the pot.

... to get things moving beyond the thresholds of the past, to
overcome stagnation again (lack of interest or time) with the
current chance of drive at different ends (Joe, Bill, Paradise).

The original claim: the need for a change.
A solution: hand over control to those who aren't too busy to do
what is needed.
BUT: what is "needed"?
I see the need for structure and clear definitions, and a way to
provide "fairplay" (within a game but also among trek variants).

> Gerdesas: paradise-workers has been quite active lately with
> various people talk about trying to bring paratwink back to life;
> I am sure that this is related to that.

Yes: Of course I have an interest to coordinate Paradise efforts
with whatever happens with the rest of netrek, to join forces rather
than to do double-work or even compete against each other.
If necessary, we'd start our own resources for what we need, but I'd
rather not to if we can get together.

No: those are general questions about structure and organisation of
netrek as a whole, primarily Bronco, because historically it's the
variant giving the base name for all trek descendants, who might
become client-compatible at some future time. Even if there weren't
Paradise, I'd still love Bronco to see flurish rather than linger
around. In the end, from the success of one the other will benefit, too.

(even though some paranoid fanatics don't follow this logic and
rather see competition than cooperation, despite seeing that
sticking the head in the sand doesn't improve anything for _any_ trek)

> Basic_py: What does my being a mailing list admin and owner and
> co-maintainer of continuum have to do with paratwink?

See before: looking at the big picture Paradise is a part of it. If
you had objections either to carry Paradise on your list-server at
all or not to support changes to netrek core (Bronco is probably
your only concern), then you might consider revoking the services
you grant currently, _indepedently_ of Paradise, for Bronco alone.
So you _play_ a role, if not for Paradise, then at least for Bronco.

(BTW: has Dave contacted you for the move of paradise-workers from
SF to lists.netrek.org?)

> modemhero: I think i can condense his post into one sentence. What
> does the council perceive it's role and duties to be, and will
> paradise servers be allowed to be listed on the metaserver?

Exactly!

Rephrasing the purpose:
 what is _desired_ by the owners, status quo or change (along the
lines described, and apparently shared by [a few] others).
No progress without some change and drive.

> joee1: it sounded more like, this is the direction I am taking
> netrek and if you dont like it youre fired.
>
> Gerdesas: his comment about "must be replaced" irritated me
> greatly

Wrong: If there _were_ a direction, I'd like to follow it!
But atm everybody who I've asked refused to take direction and
required action(!), if they responded to that question at all!
 So, if there is nobody in this role, they can't be fired.

If on the other hand the chaos we have is _intentional_ ...
then I need to find something else to waste my time on.

If there were enough people agreeing with the need for an
organization _beyond_ merily providing resources, then such an
organization couldn't rely on impassive resource owners, therefore
the missing resources would need active owners (either as directors
themselves with the required actions or support those accepting the
duties, so the directors would act as "filters" and agents for them
to provide the services on the owner's resources, because the owners
are evidently too busy to do it themselves).

> Quozl: i thought it was "paradise is waking up, we have a
> tradition of forking from netrek, we're here to stir you up again
> to justify our separation." Whereas i would prefer that the
> paradise server code merge with vanilla.

You've mistaken me: because Paradise is waking up I want it to
_get back_ into the Netrek community!
But this is facing problems like protocol incompatibilties and
features definitions and enforcement (Bronco suffers the same from
the latter).
 Who's going to make the decisions and take necessary actions that
they're implemented by fair clients (as I see and have explained it)?
 For both, Paradise _and_ Bronco.

> Gerdesas: heh - nice reply, Quozl. Much more PC then I would have
> made it.
> 
> Jerub: that wasn't PC at all. It was, however, Political.

I don't ask for PC, but I do ask for constructive, reasonable
participation. So Quozl does it right, even though he said he still
wouldn't understand my requests fully. I hope this post cleared it
up better, making the previous post more sensible now.

But see also the other replies.

> joee2: yes not sure why that came up when it did
> people do understand that there is currently a project in progress
> that should have an extremely positive impact on drawing in new
> pllayers dont they?

See one of the following cross-posts from Paradise-Workers where I
quote John R. Dennison.

What is needed is direction and coordination on _all_ fronts.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From regrado at web.de  Sun Jun 17 08:23:12 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 15:23:12 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: James Cameron
In-Reply-To: <20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- James Quick wrote on Thu 31.May'07 at 11:05:58 +1000 -=

> On Wed, May 30, 2007 at 08:41:19PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> > since a generic addressing failed in the past,
> 
> When?  Cite reference.  Give link to archive.

When we talked about "governor", "director", "ruler" or whatever
labels came to mind and I said I'd prefer "director".
I've listed the "director" description before and with that the call
for volunteers to act as such or support them.

> > I hope a more personal approach gets more attention from you.
> 
> By putting us in the subject line? I doubt you know how to engage
> people's interest.

Obviously I don't for those specific persons.
Enlighten me, please, because that's the reason why this all happened:
to learn about their interest.

> > If by 2 weeks no response arrives, we need to find a replacement
> > for that resource.
> 
> Fascinating. You would try to force our hand by setting a date and
> claiming you will replace us. Thanks for the vote of confidence in
> our services. I'm not encouraged. I take this as an attack.

Well... I'm sorry that _you_ do, because you already gave some
responses before, therefore I _might_ have spared you in this eMail
with that expiration time for all the others who have _not yet_
responded. But I thought to have an equal status for and from all
addressed it would be better to ask you the exact same questions,
which you've already answered more or less before, this time
condensed and filtered to the core, less ambiguities.

I'm not trying to force anyone, as others have pointed out I
technically even can't.
 All I did was ask you (all of you) to explain yourself with regard
to exercisizing your power or to support representatives on behalf
of you for the described goals and framework, replacement only for
resources needed for those planned goals and framework.

You don't have to, I try to find others then who think alike.
(Re-)use existing infra-structure for this plan would be nice, but
is no requirement for it to succeed, only within that plan this is
the replacement.

So I forgot to exempt you from the dead line ("unavailable" for this
plan, not interested). I'm sorry for adressing that explicitely.
 I am/ was satisfied with your response time (that's why I hoped
you'd accept a director position, too) and with most of your
reponses (except that you declined the position), but I wasn't with
those of the others, I'm not confident there (no responses at all?!).

Disclaimer: not because I disrespect all their contributions of the
past -- I _AM_ very thankful for each and all of it(!) -- but
because they can't (or don't want to) serve the community in the way
I see required for progress in the future (with the necessary
changes!), probably meaning that we'll stay stuck where we are now.

> > I'd like to have facts and preparations done before vacation
> > begins
> 
> What vacation is this?

Ah sorry, big summer vacation (1-3months) in the northern hemisphere.
Damn, as if timezones aren't slowing things down already.
Let's have a smaller flat earth again. :(

> > - Is this list of resources run for netrek with their owners
> > correct and complete?
> 
> No.
> 
> You should review the list of resources on the Wiki.

Ah, but not all "owners" are listed.

------ QUOTE BEGIN ------
The list is here so that: {...}
people in charge of things remember that they are there.
------- QUOTE END -------

Cool, who are those "people in charge"?
In charge of what?
Do we already have "directors" (+ "agents"), just not explicitely
listed by this roles (and maybe not filling the role in all aspects)?

> Please define "owner". Is that someone who pays the bills,
> provides the hosting, provides the bandwidth, purchases the
> equipment, or controls the policy thereof?

Owner == has absolute/ final technical admin control over the
machine hosting a trek relevant service, including policies and what
else is needed for/ attached to trek.

Bills maybe paid by others and therefore owner has to ask for
approval from authority above for major changes to the system, but
generally owner decides independently what happens on the machine
hosting that service.

There might be "agents" to run the service hosted on behalf the
owner, but the "owner" has the final word for the host + service.

"director" defines netrek itself, goals and guidelines and
	coordinates activities, pushing partners where necessary.
-> "agents" implement them if "director" can't personally
-> "owners" can be "directors"
-> "owners" can be "agents"
	"owner" can have own "agents" to achieve the tasks to
	provide services, whether "owner" acts as "director" or as
	"agent" for a director.

So there are 2 different types of agents: organisational aides to
the directors to manage coordination, and technical aides to the
owners to provide services.
Next to "divide and conquer" now also "structure and guidance".

> > 	- www (nexus): Dave, James
> 
> akb4 has been the primary maintainer of this content lately.

OK, but he doesn't "own" it by above definition.
I'm looking for the final deciders what is being served and how.
If it's delegated, then ... what are the conditions, is the agent
free to act as "director" or are there limits given by a "director"
or "owner"?
What would those limits be?

> > 	- meta-server: Carlos
> 
> You've neglected the other metaservers. The metaservers also
> provide different resources with different "ownership". The
> resources include key list, FAQ, and active game list.

Ok then ...
- key list is owned + run by whom?
- which faq? where?

What other metas exist and are owned + run by whom?
	Other services they provide?

> > 	- SF project: Dave, Kurt, James, Carlos, Bob
> 
> No, see the project definition on SF.

This?
"Project Admins: ahn, quozl, siegl, tanner, unbelver"
Or what/ where else?

> > - Do you want to act as netrek director per game type?
> 
> No, but I seem to have a vote.

"vote"? For what?

> > 		- run reference server for game type.
> > 			(allow only blessed)
> 
> No.  Client blessing is pointless, since we have not TCA.

Disambiguate TCA, please.

But since you said "no", would you want to have _any other_ system
to make cheating harder, or rather let everybody do whatever they
want (server and client side)?

> No, I see no reason to run a reference server.  We have enough servers.

Well... one of them could become the reference server then.

> > - Will you treat all Netrek variants equally, no censoring or
> > preference in meta-server or other resources of general service?
> 
> No.

What, how and why would you treat it differently?

> > 	- let the players decide what _they_ want to play,
> 
> They can set up their own servers.  They have already.  warped.

Yes, but there can be more than just 1 other non-Bronco-server.

> > 	- let one director per type have an account on your systems
> > 		to execute their admin job as director on behalf of
> > 		the whole board.
> 
> Certainly not.

... well... just for clarification if you accepted the director
system at all: if the owner acted as director or its agent, there
were no need for a separate access.

> > As a guideline what I expect from the directors: to take into
> > account that the newbie player type has changed.
> 
> Couldn't parse the following paragraph.  Or the text that followed it.

Ok, could have been made shorter:
- we need changes,
- the directors should focus on the newbies _for now_,
- possibly pushing some veterans off limits,
- but not let them stop you as director for the cause of the newbies.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From regrado at web.de  Sun Jun 17 08:23:01 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 15:23:01 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] Emergency: yes (was "Call for feedback")
In-Reply-To: <20070531053606.GA9941@orion.netrek.org>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070531053606.GA9941@orion.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20070617132300.GD4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- Dave Ahn wrote on Thu 31.May'07 at  1:36:06 -0400 -=

> Is there some sort of catastrophic emergency in the Netrek
> community that I am not aware of?

Yes, we need a plan, and people executing and coordinating it.

As so often some momentum arises periodically and fades away again
because of lack of coordination.

The point of all my "stirring up" is to get some _clear_ and
reliable structure or leadership to provide that coordination.
Chaos and freedom is fine, but doesn't help those who need/ want
guidance and a clear direction, when things go opposite ways.

I know you (Dave, and others, too) are very busy with non-trek
stuff, so I don't expect that you personally do all the required
work. "Required" as I have described it, because the current state
has been lingering around for years with no _lasting_ improvement
with regard to self-propelling playerbase.
 The problem is, you control the currently used resources without
exerting the power with it to define and push Netrek.

It requires active people to get things moving, move things oneself
and respond to requests faster, before the interest is gone again.
I see conflict (Bronco vs. Strugeon + Paratwinks, Borg-dom) where
cooperation should take place (protocol compatibility, joined
campaigning). That's a waste of energy.

> I see activity on the lists, notices of game stats for clue games,

If the current state is sufficient for you, fine, keep it that way.
I feel it is not sufficient (for blessing mechanism and
Paradise-Bronco cooperation due to lack of defintions and directions
for/ coordination of compatibility, capaigning), but I can't improve
matters all by myself (for that matter: I believe none of us can,
not even the owners, even if they wanted).

> and no reports of major problems or issues that have been brought
> specifically to my attention (as I have stated often in the past,
> best direct way to reach me PRIVATELY is at ahn at
> romulus.netrek.org).
> {...}
> There are some other infrastructure changes I have on my TODO
> list, but frankly I am rather busy at the moment, and I don't
> think these changes have any measurable impact on the current
> state of the community.
> {...}
> If anyone has a specific concern or request regarding the
> netrek.org infrastructure, please feel free to contact me
> directly.

... that "busy" scenario is exactly what I'm referring to with my
request, that's what I don't want to do: handle in private what is
of public interest.

BTW, Paradise-Workers is ready to move, can you make it happen?
SF sucks big time now.

> Andrew Bressen and Joe Evango have graciously volunteered to help
> maintain the netrek.org home page, and I am coordinating some
> infrastructure related issues with them.

This means the wiki path is dead? Forever? Or is this coming when
you have time to set it up?

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From regrado at web.de  Sun Jun 17 09:04:42 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 16:04:42 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: Carlos Villalpando
In-Reply-To: <20070604050923.GB2144@carlos-desktop>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070604050923.GB2144@carlos-desktop>
Message-ID: <20070617140441.GG4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- Carlos Y. Villalpando wrote on Sun  3.Jun'07 at 22:09:23 -0700 -=

> > 	- SF project: Dave, Kurt, James, Carlos, Bob
> > 	- SF Paradise: Dave (+ Bob Glamm, but subscribed here?)
> 
> Aren't these long abandoned, now?

Uh... this is new for me, who can tell?
At least there are changes in Apr 2007.

> --Carlos V.

No (interest to) comment on the original request for re-organisation?
Do you mind any change at all?

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From joe at playnetrek.org  Sun Jun 17 16:12:21 2007
From: joe at playnetrek.org (Joe Evango)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 14:12:21 -0700
Subject: [netrek-dev] Emergency: yes (was "Call for feedback")
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de><20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org><20070531053606.GA9941@orion.netrek.org>
	<20070617132300.GD4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <BAY113-DAV22C25DDFFF3A04709745ACB1C0@phx.gbl>

----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Rado S" <regrado at web.de>
>Yes, we need a plan, and people executing and coordinating it.
>
There is a plan and people are currently in the middle coordinating and 
executing it.  Dave has been key in coordinating and providing resources 
needed for, what I consider to be, one of the largest promotional pushes for 
Netrek since I started playing.

How does this plan you proposed tie in with what we are currently working 
on?  Can you please summarize in one sentence what it is you are trying to 
accomplish?


-Joe 



From quozl at us.netrek.org  Sun Jun 17 18:07:39 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 09:07:39 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: James Cameron
In-Reply-To: <20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>

G'day Rado,

You asked that you be treated equally, I think, in your mail to which
this mail has latest References.  I will do so once you send small mails
with a single issue in them, like everybody else does.  When you go
monolithic, I ignore you because of the high cost of answering.  On the
other hand, please keep no more than one question open at a time.
Eventually you should learn all you need.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From netrek at gmail.com  Sun Jun 17 19:51:57 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 20:51:57 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Emergency: yes (was "Call for feedback")
In-Reply-To: <BAY113-DAV22C25DDFFF3A04709745ACB1C0@phx.gbl>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070531053606.GA9941@orion.netrek.org>
	<20070617132300.GD4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<BAY113-DAV22C25DDFFF3A04709745ACB1C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0706171751m7e365cb4v2594f009a0989973@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/17/07, Joe Evango <joe at playnetrek.org> wrote:
> There is a plan and people are currently in the middle coordinating and
> executing it.  Dave has been key in coordinating and providing resources
> needed for, what I consider to be, one of the largest promotional pushes for
> Netrek since I started playing.
>
> How does this plan you proposed tie in with what we are currently working
> on?  Can you please summarize in one sentence what it is you are trying to
> accomplish?

It would help to know exactly what _is_ being worked on :-) This is
the first I've heard of this big promotional campaign, can you be more
specific?

Zach


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Sun Jun 17 20:39:52 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:39:52 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Emergency: yes (was "Call for feedback")
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0706171751m7e365cb4v2594f009a0989973@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070531053606.GA9941@orion.netrek.org>
	<20070617132300.GD4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<BAY113-DAV22C25DDFFF3A04709745ACB1C0@phx.gbl>
	<ecfa260c0706171751m7e365cb4v2594f009a0989973@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070618013952.GF4664@us.netrek.org>

On Sun, Jun 17, 2007 at 08:51:57PM -0400, Zach wrote:
> It would help to know exactly what _is_ being worked on :-) This is
> the first I've heard of this big promotional campaign, can you be more
> specific?

On the other hand, please do not reveal any information that can be used
to disrupt the campaign.  We know we have people here who rejoice in our
failures.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From jeffrey.w.watts at gmail.com  Sun Jun 17 21:57:30 2007
From: jeffrey.w.watts at gmail.com (Jeffrey Watts)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 21:57:30 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Emergency: yes (was "Call for feedback")
In-Reply-To: <20070618013952.GF4664@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070531053606.GA9941@orion.netrek.org>
	<20070617132300.GD4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<BAY113-DAV22C25DDFFF3A04709745ACB1C0@phx.gbl>
	<ecfa260c0706171751m7e365cb4v2594f009a0989973@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070618013952.GF4664@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <65631e800706171957j20c2e8ebw9037ee52743a6059@mail.gmail.com>

Wow, is the infighting that bad?  I've been off netrek-dev for years and
years, and just recently rejoined.  I do see some heated discussion though.

It would be helpful to get an idea where development is headed right now,
though.  I've heard some mention of an effort in merging Paradise's
extensions into Bronco to create a "unified" server.    That sounds like a
great idea, but I'm not sure as to the level of effort required.

I'll go through the archives and see if I can figure out what's going on.  I
haven't played Paradise or Bronco for about seven years now, and just
recently started getting interested again and dusting off my Paradise server
code.  My old handle was Boscoe - I was never active in League, I was mostly
free beer runnerscum.  :)

Jeffrey.

On 6/17/07, James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote:

>
> On the other hand, please do not reveal any information that can be used
> to disrupt the campaign.  We know we have people here who rejoice in our
> failures.
>


-- 

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from
oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that
will reach to himself." -- Thomas Paine
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From quozl at us.netrek.org  Sun Jun 17 22:12:22 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 13:12:22 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Emergency: yes (was "Call for feedback")
In-Reply-To: <65631e800706171957j20c2e8ebw9037ee52743a6059@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070531053606.GA9941@orion.netrek.org>
	<20070617132300.GD4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<BAY113-DAV22C25DDFFF3A04709745ACB1C0@phx.gbl>
	<ecfa260c0706171751m7e365cb4v2594f009a0989973@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070618013952.GF4664@us.netrek.org>
	<65631e800706171957j20c2e8ebw9037ee52743a6059@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070618031221.GI4664@us.netrek.org>

On Sun, Jun 17, 2007 at 09:57:30PM -0500, Jeffrey Watts wrote:
> Wow, is the infighting that bad?

No, just that we're dealing with anonymous distributed denial of service
attacks, and recently the attacks changed footprint at about the same
time that new information was shared.  It seems logical to assume that
we have hostile parties present, either on IRC or the mailing list, or
watching the archives.

> It would be helpful to get an idea where development is headed right
> now, though.

No specific public plans at this time, apart from what is in the source
repository BUGS or PROJECTS files.  The people running the clue games
are generating patches to solve issues there.

> I've heard some mention of an effort in merging Paradise's extensions
> into Bronco to create a "unified" server.

Yes, I've said that I'd prefer to have the Paradise extensions merged
into Vanilla, so that the source code of the server can support all the
operational modes instead of just all but one.  It would be a complex
task.  Currently Vanilla supports Bronco pickup, Bronco clue, INL, base
practice, newbie, Pre-T, Sturgeon, and several other minor variants.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From netrek at gmail.com  Mon Jun 18 01:41:42 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 02:41:42 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Emergency: yes (was "Call for feedback")
In-Reply-To: <20070618013952.GF4664@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070531053606.GA9941@orion.netrek.org>
	<20070617132300.GD4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<BAY113-DAV22C25DDFFF3A04709745ACB1C0@phx.gbl>
	<ecfa260c0706171751m7e365cb4v2594f009a0989973@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070618013952.GF4664@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0706172341j4e6d785eg6753a7365dfaa538@mail.gmail.com>

Why would someone join a netrek development list if they wanted to see
the game fail?

Zach

On 6/17/07, James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 17, 2007 at 08:51:57PM -0400, Zach wrote:
> > It would help to know exactly what _is_ being worked on :-) This is
> > the first I've heard of this big promotional campaign, can you be more
> > specific?
>
> On the other hand, please do not reveal any information that can be used
> to disrupt the campaign.  We know we have people here who rejoice in our
> failures.
>
> --
> James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/
>
> _______________________________________________
> netrek-dev mailing list
> netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
> http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev
>


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Mon Jun 18 01:58:19 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 16:58:19 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Emergency: yes (was "Call for feedback")
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0706172341j4e6d785eg6753a7365dfaa538@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070531053606.GA9941@orion.netrek.org>
	<20070617132300.GD4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<BAY113-DAV22C25DDFFF3A04709745ACB1C0@phx.gbl>
	<ecfa260c0706171751m7e365cb4v2594f009a0989973@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070618013952.GF4664@us.netrek.org>
	<ecfa260c0706172341j4e6d785eg6753a7365dfaa538@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070618065819.GT4664@us.netrek.org>

On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 02:41:42AM -0400, Zach wrote:
> Why would someone join a netrek development list if they wanted to see
> the game fail?

To be more effective in making the game, or a subcommunity in the game,
fail.  By gathering intelligence.  Anyway, they don't need to join, they
can just watch the archives.  If we cast a vote of value for each
subscriber, how would we all score?

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From netrek at gmail.com  Mon Jun 18 02:05:38 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 03:05:38 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Emergency: yes (was "Call for feedback")
In-Reply-To: <20070618065819.GT4664@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070531053606.GA9941@orion.netrek.org>
	<20070617132300.GD4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<BAY113-DAV22C25DDFFF3A04709745ACB1C0@phx.gbl>
	<ecfa260c0706171751m7e365cb4v2594f009a0989973@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070618013952.GF4664@us.netrek.org>
	<ecfa260c0706172341j4e6d785eg6753a7365dfaa538@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070618065819.GT4664@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0706180005g38a9bebbi94c2fd24dc32f0ef@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/18/07, James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote:
>
> To be more effective in making the game, or a subcommunity in the game,
> fail.  By gathering intelligence.  Anyway, they don't need to join, they
> can just watch the archives.  If we cast a vote of value for each
> subscriber, how would we all score?

Maybe the archives can be made secret. Depends how you define value:
loc, paid advertizing efforts, time spent coaching newbies,
participation in clue games, word of mouth
advertizing, time spent chatting about netrek issues in IRC, # of
words related to netrek send to netrek-dev, content generated for the
wiki, hosting community services, etc.

Zach


From chronosws at comcast.net  Mon Jun 18 09:33:21 2007
From: chronosws at comcast.net (ChronosWS)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 07:33:21 -0700
Subject: [netrek-dev] Emergency: yes (was "Call for feedback")
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0706180005g38a9bebbi94c2fd24dc32f0ef@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>	<20070531053606.GA9941@orion.netrek.org>	<20070617132300.GD4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>	<BAY113-DAV22C25DDFFF3A04709745ACB1C0@phx.gbl>	<ecfa260c0706171751m7e365cb4v2594f009a0989973@mail.gmail.com>	<20070618013952.GF4664@us.netrek.org>	<ecfa260c0706172341j4e6d785eg6753a7365dfaa538@mail.gmail.com>	<20070618065819.GT4664@us.netrek.org>
	<ecfa260c0706180005g38a9bebbi94c2fd24dc32f0ef@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000601c7b1b5$9f687b10$de397130$@net>

Heh, you guys are far too paranoid.  Netrek won't fail because some jackass
is looking for information to make your lives difficult.  Concentrate on
building the playe rbase, improving the game and generally figuring out how
to get more people involved, not on how to prevent people from finding out
more information about the game.

-----Original Message-----
From: netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org
[mailto:netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org] On Behalf Of Zach
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 12:06 AM
To: Netrek Development Mailing List
Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] Emergency: yes (was "Call for feedback")

On 6/18/07, James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote:
>
> To be more effective in making the game, or a subcommunity in the game,
> fail.  By gathering intelligence.  Anyway, they don't need to join, they
> can just watch the archives.  If we cast a vote of value for each
> subscriber, how would we all score?

Maybe the archives can be made secret. Depends how you define value:
loc, paid advertizing efforts, time spent coaching newbies,
participation in clue games, word of mouth
advertizing, time spent chatting about netrek issues in IRC, # of
words related to netrek send to netrek-dev, content generated for the
wiki, hosting community services, etc.

Zach

_______________________________________________
netrek-dev mailing list
netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev



From jjadeinc at hotmail.com  Mon Jun 18 11:37:33 2007
From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:37:33 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Emergency: yes (was "Call for feedback")
Message-ID: <BAY113-F31E73AB68623D653DB4A90CB130@phx.gbl>

That is what we have been and are currently concentrating on.

I am trying to understand what RadoS is trying to accomplish with his plan.  
Is there a specific issue he is trying to address?  His emails are all over 
the place and difficult to understand.  He is aware of plans currently in 
progress to help build the playerbase after the netrek.org/playnetrek.org 
merger as I have communicated this to him and many others using various 
channels.  Have been talking about it for months yet, from what I can tell, 
I see no mention of this in his emails.

-Joe

>From: "ChronosWS" <chronosws at comcast.net>
>Heh, you guys are far too paranoid.  Netrek won't fail because some jackass
>is looking for information to make your lives difficult.  Concentrate on
>building the playe rbase, improving the game and generally figuring out how
>to get more people involved, not on how to prevent people from finding out
>more information about the game.
>

_________________________________________________________________
Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i?m Initiative now. 
It?s free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_June07



From netrek at gmail.com  Mon Jun 18 17:30:11 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 18:30:11 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Emergency: yes (was "Call for feedback")
In-Reply-To: <BAY113-F31E73AB68623D653DB4A90CB130@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY113-F31E73AB68623D653DB4A90CB130@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0706181530u612e047dj3055e7b12b3bd9e7@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/18/07, Joe Evango <jjadeinc at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I am trying to understand what RadoS is trying to accomplish with his plan.
> Is there a specific issue he is trying to address?  His emails are all over
> the place and difficult to understand.  He is aware of plans currently in
> progress to help build the playerbase after the netrek.org/playnetrek.org
> merger as I have communicated this to him and many others using various

This is the first I've heard of this merger so maybe Rado also was
unaware of it.

Zach


From jrd at gerdesas.com  Mon Jun 18 17:52:39 2007
From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 17:52:39 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Emergency: yes (was "Call for feedback")
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0706181530u612e047dj3055e7b12b3bd9e7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY113-F31E73AB68623D653DB4A90CB130@phx.gbl>
	<ecfa260c0706181530u612e047dj3055e7b12b3bd9e7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070618225239.GH4404@mail.beanhq.com>

On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 06:30:11PM -0400, Zach wrote:
> 
> This is the first I've heard of this merger so maybe Rado also was
> unaware of it.

	Rado lurks on #netrek and reads the backlog; I would be highly
	surprised if he was not aware of it.




							John

-- 
"I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones."
As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to
be put through to an engineer.

"My other computer is your windows box."
                                     Ralf Hildebrandt
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From quozl at us.netrek.org  Mon Jun 18 19:10:47 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 10:10:47 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Emergency: yes (was "Call for feedback")
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0706181530u612e047dj3055e7b12b3bd9e7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY113-F31E73AB68623D653DB4A90CB130@phx.gbl>
	<ecfa260c0706181530u612e047dj3055e7b12b3bd9e7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070619001047.GB4194@us.netrek.org>

On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 06:30:11PM -0400, Zach wrote:
> This is the first I've heard of this merger so maybe Rado also was
> unaware of it.

It has been discussed via IRC, -dev, and via the development Wiki, for
months.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From netrek at gmail.com  Mon Jun 18 19:43:21 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 20:43:21 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Emergency: yes (was "Call for feedback")
In-Reply-To: <20070619001047.GB4194@us.netrek.org>
References: <BAY113-F31E73AB68623D653DB4A90CB130@phx.gbl>
	<ecfa260c0706181530u612e047dj3055e7b12b3bd9e7@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070619001047.GB4194@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0706181743l65b83f8dx1d6341b0dcc9944b@mail.gmail.com>

Hmm I still saw no mention of it and I read all netrek-dev posts.
Maybe I missed some.

Zach

On 6/18/07, James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 06:30:11PM -0400, Zach wrote:
> > This is the first I've heard of this merger so maybe Rado also was
> > unaware of it.
>
> It has been discussed via IRC, -dev, and via the development Wiki, for
> months.
>
> --
> James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/
>
> _______________________________________________
> netrek-dev mailing list
> netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
> http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev
>


From regrado at web.de  Tue Jun 19 14:43:39 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 21:43:39 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: James Cameron
In-Reply-To: <20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- James Quick wrote on Mon 18.Jun'07 at  9:07:39 +1000 -=

> G'day Rado,

Moin,

> You asked that you be treated equally, I think, in your mail to which
> this mail has latest References.

"I do ask for constructive, reasonable participation."

If this means "equally" to you, then yes.

> I will do so once you send small mails with a single issue in
> them, like everybody else does.
> When you go monolithic, I ignore you because of the high cost of
> answering.
> On the other hand, please keep no more than one question open at a
> time.

*sigh*

Does this mean 1 sentence or line per eMail?
You know, some answers (must) exceed the size of the question (or
quote), and people begin to address aspects that haven't been aimed
for at 1st.
 Still, they are (at least in the first few responses) related, part
of a whole issue. And to get the whole picture, you have to see all
parts, at best read them all _before_ replying to _any_ of it.

Otherwise people focus on minor or even irrelevant details to turn
attention away from the necessary issues and lose the big picture.



Does this mean you want me to split the mail up for you to read 1
passage after the other?
What's that different than editing each passage on your own as time
permits?

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From regrado at web.de  Tue Jun 19 15:26:21 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 22:26:21 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] "rado to -dev translation gateway" for joe + Quozl
Message-ID: <20070619202621.GK21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

Moin,

<joee1> I am just trying to understand the purpose of the plan you
	proposed on the dev list.

Ultimately bring more fun to trek and more people following the fun
to us.

- a system to produce "fair" clients: no cheating, no borg.
- a system to allow trek variants next to each other, ideally
cooperatively, but at least peacefully, no discrimination, for
people to pick their preferred way of trek fun. Later fluctuation
will bring people to other flavours, too, so all benefit in the end,
if linked together well back and forth (www, ads, metas, clients).

For any trek game you need resources like code-, game-, meta- and
www-servers to bring the fun to the people and coders.
For progress you need a direction, and for efficiency that should be
coordinated.

This needs some people defining trek variants and controling (with
help of agents) that this works smoothly. If something is needed to
know for developers (or any contributors), those coordinators should
know and respond quickly (dev- and user-support and cheat-control
can be time expensive, so not suitable for all current owner to have
even more load).

If those purposes are not desired, forget all about the "plan".
If either of them are (both are independent from each other, but need
the same action of definition + control), then it's easier to reuse
existing resources than to build them up from zero.

Therefore the current owners support at least must be checked first.
At best they'd even pick up the role of definers and controlers
("directors").
If there is neither active participation nor indirect support/
tolerance by the owners, others have to be found.

That's what the "plan" and suggested roles is about as described in
detail in the "call for feedback" eMail.
Given the discussion that took place before I assumed that was
basically clear, just needed refinement to the core.

Note: this is about Paradise, _too_, but even without it, the same
plan would stand for "fair Bronco clients" alone.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From regrado at web.de  Tue Jun 19 15:26:06 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 22:26:06 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] Emergency: yes (was "Call for feedback")
In-Reply-To: <20070619001047.GB4194@us.netrek.org>
References: <BAY113-F31E73AB68623D653DB4A90CB130@phx.gbl>
	<ecfa260c0706181530u612e047dj3055e7b12b3bd9e7@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070619001047.GB4194@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20070619202606.GJ21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- James Quick wrote on Tue 19.Jun'07 at 10:10:47 +1000 -=

> On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 06:30:11PM -0400, Zach wrote:
> > This is the first I've heard of this merger so maybe Rado also was
> > unaware of it.
> 
> It has been discussed via IRC, -dev, and via the development Wiki,
> for months.

I've heard of Andrew and Joe independently from each other having
plans to merge playnetrek with netrek, but no details nor whether
there are any other aspects.
No idea about the state or timetable.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From regrado at web.de  Tue Jun 19 15:27:02 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 22:27:02 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] Emergency: yes (was "Call for feedback")
In-Reply-To: <BAY113-DAV22C25DDFFF3A04709745ACB1C0@phx.gbl>
References: <20070617132300.GD4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<BAY113-DAV22C25DDFFF3A04709745ACB1C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20070619202702.GL21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- Joe Evango wrote on Sun 17.Jun'07 at 14:12:21 -0700 -=

> There is a plan and people are currently in the middle
> coordinating and executing it. Dave has been key in coordinating
> and providing resources needed for, what I consider to be, one of
> the largest promotional pushes for Netrek since I started playing.
> 
> How does this plan you proposed tie in with what we are currently
> working on? Can you please summarize in one sentence what it is
> you are trying to accomplish?

Your plan then has a flaw: it needs publicity.
That's one major component of mine. ;)

I mean the _planning_ itself, not just that you're doing _something_.
You 2 are now doing all the work alone, while there could be more to
your side. (or who else is working on it and doing what?!)

There have been annoucements to use a wiki, now it's in the hands of
only you 2 again (you're fine guys, but we have no systematic
progress of getting rid of technical/ personal dependency which stalled
netrek the last time).

Now the only thing I (or anyone else) can do is sit and wait till
you guys start the show. This is not what I imagine a cooperative
open community to be where all pull at the same end of the string.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Tue Jun 19 19:02:02 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 10:02:02 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: James Cameron
In-Reply-To: <20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
	<20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20070620000202.GA4060@us.netrek.org>

On Tue, Jun 19, 2007 at 09:43:39PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> =- James Quick wrote on Mon 18.Jun'07 at  9:07:39 +1000 -=

I'm not sure what this "Quick" means.  Check your translator.

> Does this mean you want me to split the mail up for you to read 1
> passage after the other?

Yes, one issue at a time.  I note you took 13 lines to ask that
question, yet I thought it was quite clear from what I originally said.
But if I get more than one or two mails from you each day, I'll presume
they are an attack and I will ignore them.  Learn the pace.

> What's that different than editing each passage on your own as time
> permits?

I read hundreds of messages each day, yours are the largest and most
complex, and so you are at the limit of what is interesting to respond
to.  You should learn to be like others if you want to get your message
across.

Communication is the responsibility of both parties; the transmitter and
receiver.  If you think otherwise, then your communication will be
ignored.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From ahn at orion.netrek.org  Wed Jun 20 00:54:02 2007
From: ahn at orion.netrek.org (Dave Ahn)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 01:54:02 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Emergency: yes (was "Call for feedback")
In-Reply-To: <20070617132300.GD4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070531053606.GA9941@orion.netrek.org>
	<20070617132300.GD4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20070620055402.GA30771@orion.netrek.org>

There are a lot of comments on this thread, and what I have to say is
fairly simple.  I am no longer sufficiently involved in Netrek to
provide any meaningful guidance in terms of where the game should go.  I
am not statisfied with the "current state" as you put it, but the old
timers have moved on and taken their knowledge, experience, initiative,
and the game with them.  It is time for the current contributors and
players to pick up the torch and take it where they wish.  Netrek is not
the same as it was.  And it shouldn't be.

Regarding the infrastructure, I prefer to delegate maintenance of a
particular resource to capable people who can commit to doing so for an
extended period of time.  This is my strategy for removing myself as the
bottleneck for getting things done.

The wiki path is complementary to what Andrew and Joe are doing, and
I'll open it up eventually.



From netrek at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 01:04:59 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 02:04:59 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Emergency: yes (was "Call for feedback")
In-Reply-To: <20070620055402.GA30771@orion.netrek.org>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070531053606.GA9941@orion.netrek.org>
	<20070617132300.GD4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070620055402.GA30771@orion.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0706192304q4a949874jecae7e81070b07d@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Dave,

Is that new wiki going to be installed? I see Moin Moin is still running.

Zach


From jeffrey.w.watts at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 14:01:36 2007
From: jeffrey.w.watts at gmail.com (Jeffrey Watts)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 14:01:36 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: James Cameron
In-Reply-To: <20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
	<20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <65631e800706201201n523763eetabbd9a59cd51f3d7@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/19/07, Rado S <regrado at web.de> wrote:

>
> Otherwise people focus on minor or even irrelevant details to turn
> attention away from the necessary issues and lose the big picture.
>

You're encountering the same phenomenon for a different reason.  Your emails
are so sprawling that folks zone out while reading them and instead focus on
the one thing that sticks out to them.  They then only respond to that one.

I think you have good ideas, but I think you're putting the cart before the
horse.  You're calling for a lot of leadership and organization but I think
you fail to realize that you can't create this in a vacuum.  Those kinds of
structures need to be created AFTER things start moving, when the devs and
admins start noticing that they're getting bogged down in organizational
issues and feel the need to consolidate and coordinate to get things done.
We're not there yet.

I work for a very large company.  I've seen this mistake made by management
many, many times.  They figure a reorganization and a "tiger team" and a
plan and committees will suddenly produce organization and efficiency simply
because they want them to - it doesn't work that way.

I think your ideas have merit.  I think they're valid concerns.  I think
most of them are too early.  If I were you I'd start much simpler.   Push
for one or two changes that will have short term benefits, and make a case
for them.  I need to emphasize "short term".  Keep them simple.  If they
work and folks are receptive to them, push for more.  Volunteer your efforts
in something as a method of building credibility.  I certainly like what
you've done in awakening the Paradise community from our slumber.  Just
don't get frustrated when others don't immediately share your enthusiasm -
you can easily go too far and alienate folks.

Anyhow, I think you're doing a good job but I think you're a bit overzealous
and it's probably why you're getting some push-back on your ideas.  :)

Jeffrey AKA Boscoe

-- 

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from
oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that
will reach to himself." -- Thomas Paine
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From tanner at real-time.com  Wed Jun 20 14:45:03 2007
From: tanner at real-time.com (Bob Tanner)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 14:45:03 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Emergency: yes (was "Call for feedback")
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070531053606.GA9941@orion.netrek.org>
	<20070617132300.GD4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<BAY113-DAV22C25DDFFF3A04709745ACB1C0@phx.gbl>
	<ecfa260c0706171751m7e365cb4v2594f009a0989973@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070618013952.GF4664@us.netrek.org>
	<65631e800706171957j20c2e8ebw9037ee52743a6059@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f5c03v$hj3$1@sea.gmane.org>

Jeffrey Watts wrote:
> It would be helpful to get an idea where development is headed right now,
> though.  

Hmm, he/she who writes the code leads? Seems to be the way smaller open
source projects work.


Dave Ahn wrote:
> Regarding the infrastructure, I prefer to delegate maintenance of a
> particular resource to capable people who can commit to doing so for an
> extended period of time.

I'll happily delegate anything that the wiki identifies as "Bob Tanner's
responsibility". 

All netrek resources I provide are free (no cost) and are Free (as in
speech) to be moved somewhere else.


Netrek is a small community. So much effort is being put into -what- to do
that nothing is actually getting done.

When I see things like giving people "titles" and "responsibilities" I start
ignoring the message. Personally, I have enough titles and responsibilities
at work that I don't need to be branded with them from an open source
project.

-- 
Bob Tanner <tanner at real-time.com>          | Phone : (952)943-8700
http://www.real-time.com, Minnesota, Linux | Fax   : (952)943-8500
Key fingerprint = F785 DDFC CF94 7CE8 AA87 3A9D 3895 26F1 0DDB E378



From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to  Wed Jun 20 16:22:26 2007
From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 17:22:26 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Emergency: yes
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0706192304q4a949874jecae7e81070b07d@mail.gmail.com>
	(Zach's message of "Wed, 20 Jun 2007 02:04:59 -0400")
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070531053606.GA9941@orion.netrek.org>
	<20070617132300.GD4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070620055402.GA30771@orion.netrek.org>
	<ecfa260c0706192304q4a949874jecae7e81070b07d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0qmyyus4ml.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>


Zach <netrek at gmail.com> writes:
> Is that new wiki going to be installed? I see Moin Moin is still running.

Uh, Dave's message just said he's working on it, 
and it'll be ready when it's ready, 
don't hold your breath.



From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to  Thu Jun 21 01:36:53 2007
From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 02:36:53 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] "rado to -dev translation gateway" for joe + Quozl
In-Reply-To: <20070619202621.GK21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> (Rado S.'s
	message of "Tue, 19 Jun 2007 22:26:21 +0200")
References: <20070619202621.GK21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <0q645hstiy.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>


Rado wrote:
> - a system to produce "fair" clients: no cheating, no borg.

Consensus is currently working just fine at keeping borgish 
enhancements subject to feature packeting such that a server admin
can choose which features are active. Any sufficiently advanced
programmer (say, 2nd or 3rd year computer science college student) can
cheat. That isn't going to change any time soon for a whole number
of reasons. 

> - a system to allow trek variants next to each other, ideally
> cooperatively, but at least peacefully, no discrimination, for
> people to pick their preferred way of trek fun. 

We have that. No metaserver currently discriminates.

> For progress you need a direction, and for efficiency that should be
> coordinated.

Right now we have a resource shortage, not an organization shortage. 
We are a lean and efficient organization. I do not believe that at 
present we can more efficiently use the resources we have, so adding 
more coordination overhead than we already have is a waste of limited 
resources. 

Find me five hundred additional active players, a half dozen more game
servers live, six to ten more coders, web authors, and sysadmins, and
we might need some of the stuff you post about. But we aren't going to
get those bodies by talking about organization and defining roles.



From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to  Thu Jun 21 01:42:52 2007
From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 02:42:52 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Emergency: yes
In-Reply-To: <20070619202606.GJ21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> (Rado S.'s
	message of "Tue, 19 Jun 2007 22:26:06 +0200")
References: <BAY113-F31E73AB68623D653DB4A90CB130@phx.gbl>
	<ecfa260c0706181530u612e047dj3055e7b12b3bd9e7@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070619001047.GB4194@us.netrek.org>
	<20070619202606.GJ21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <0q4pl1st8z.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>


Rado S <regrado at web.de> writes:
> I've heard of Andrew and Joe independently from each other having
> plans to merge playnetrek with netrek, but no details nor whether
> there are any other aspects.
> No idea about the state or timetable.

Nothing independant about it; Joe and I are working together
on web stuff, with sysadmin support and other clues from Dave and James.


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Mon Jun 25 03:54:33 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 18:54:33 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] security fix, SP_MOTD,
	information classification violation
Message-ID: <20070625085433.GA25952@us.netrek.org>

G'day,

The attached patch closes a security vulnerability in versions of the
Netrek Vanilla Server from 2.13.0 and prior.

When assembling the SP_MOTD "message of the day" packet, which includes
an 80-byte character array with a NUL termination, the server was not
clearing the buffer first, and so unintentional data from the stack was
also being transmitted.

No known use of this data exists at this time, but you never know.

The flaw was discovered while writing new client code to process SP_MOTD
packets.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/
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From netrek at gmail.com  Mon Jun 25 15:10:14 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 16:10:14 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] duplicate metaserver entry
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0706251310u124c1f40o3b6b2c2a426205c7@mail.gmail.com>

i see right now on the meta 2 listings for same server:

netrek.hwy.com.au
netrek.hwy.com.au

zach


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Mon Jun 25 17:55:42 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 08:55:42 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] duplicate metaserver entry
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0706251310u124c1f40o3b6b2c2a426205c7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ecfa260c0706251310u124c1f40o3b6b2c2a426205c7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070625225542.GA3820@us.netrek.org>

On Mon, Jun 25, 2007 at 04:10:14PM -0400, Zach wrote:
> i see right now on the meta 2 listings for same server:
> 
> netrek.hwy.com.au
> netrek.hwy.com.au

Known problem, patch welcome.

Patches so far have worked to create an alias listing.  The code needs
to be reviewed to determine why this is not successful.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From stephen.thorne at gmail.com  Wed Jun 27 00:47:01 2007
From: stephen.thorne at gmail.com (Stephen Thorne)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:47:01 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] MacTrek speech synthesis
Message-ID: <3e8ca5c80706262247q57402f94k7f523d811f2fa7a7@mail.gmail.com>

G'day,

It would seem the mactrek client has a problem with its speech
synthesiser.where the phrase "Our computers limit us to having 8 live
torpedo's at a time captain!" comes out with "live" as in to "live
life to the fullest", not as in "live wire".

The advice I just got from a speech usability expert was to spell it
"lighve" before sending it to the speech synth. Some synthesisers have
heuristics to try and get this right, but are notorious for getting it
wrong.

-- 
Stephen Thorne

"Give me enough bandwidth and a place to sit and I will move the world."
  --Jonathan Lange


From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to  Wed Jun 27 19:37:54 2007
From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 20:37:54 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] MacTrek speech synthesis
In-Reply-To: <3e8ca5c80706262247q57402f94k7f523d811f2fa7a7@mail.gmail.com>
	(Stephen Thorne's message of "Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:47:01 +1000")
References: <3e8ca5c80706262247q57402f94k7f523d811f2fa7a7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0qsl8cncbh.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>


"Stephen Thorne" <stephen.thorne at gmail.com> writes:
> It would seem the mactrek client has a problem with its speech
> synthesiser.where the phrase "Our computers limit us to having 8 live
> torpedo's at a time captain!" comes out with "live" as in to "live
> life to the fullest", not as in "live wire".
>
> The advice I just got from a speech usability expert was to spell it
> "lighve" before sending it to the speech synth. Some synthesisers have
> heuristics to try and get this right, but are notorious for getting it
> wrong.

Chris will probably see this here, but it'd probably be good if
you could enter it into the sourceforge bug tracking system...
(somewhere off of mactrek.sourceforge.net I think)

  --akb



From narcis at luky.nl  Thu Jun 28 13:05:47 2007
From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 20:05:47 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-dev Digest, Vol 28, Issue 13
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1182963603.26750.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>
References: <mailman.1.1182963603.26750.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <D3A96A8B-B175-4C31-BE2C-71239A29C7AA@luky.nl>

>
> G'day,
>
> It would seem the mactrek client has a problem with its speech
> synthesiser.where the phrase "Our computers limit us to having 8 live
> torpedo's at a time captain!" comes out with "live" as in to "live
> life to the fullest", not as in "live wire".

So, you've put a Klingon on tactical and now complain about an  
accent? :-)

> The advice I just got from a speech usability expert was to spell it
> "lighve" before sending it to the speech synth. Some synthesisers have
> heuristics to try and get this right, but are notorious for getting it
> wrong.

Indeed! though it may be better in Leopard, it's a matter of syntax i  
guess.
I've added a string compare for that exact message and change the  
word to
lighve which works perfectly.

Just in time for the 1.3 release, but it's the last bug i want to  
incorporate in this
release. As Andrew indicated: the best place to keep track of the  
bugs is in
the bug tracker, but hey at least you reported it, that's already great.

K'appla

Chris


From jrd at gerdesas.com  Thu Jun 28 17:21:04 2007
From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 17:21:04 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-dev Digest, Vol 28, Issue 13
In-Reply-To: <D3A96A8B-B175-4C31-BE2C-71239A29C7AA@luky.nl>
References: <mailman.1.1182963603.26750.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>
	<D3A96A8B-B175-4C31-BE2C-71239A29C7AA@luky.nl>
Message-ID: <20070628222104.GV25316@mail.beanhq.com>

On Thu, Jun 28, 2007 at 08:05:47PM +0200, Narcis wrote:
> 
> Just in time for the 1.3 release, but it's the last bug i want to  
> incorporate in this
> release. As Andrew indicated: the best place to keep track of the  
> bugs is in
> the bug tracker, but hey at least you reported it, that's already great.

	Did you fix the RCD issue with your client so distress calls
	are actually sent as RCD's and not as standard text macros?

	


							John
-- 
"I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones."
As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to
be put through to an engineer.

"My other computer is your windows box."
                                     Ralf Hildebrandt
<sxem> trying to play sturgeon while it's under attack is apparently not fun.
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From narcis at luky.nl  Fri Jun 29 15:59:21 2007
From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:59:21 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] Tip of the day
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1183136405.28528.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>
References: <mailman.1.1183136405.28528.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <07305A6E-32AA-4ED0-AC58-5114120E70A9@luky.nl>

Hi,

the new version of MacTrek has a "Tip of The day" option which will  
display trivia during startup, like:

- the default key maps
- simple tactics,
- netrek trivia..

So, if you have some intresting things, i would love to add them like:

"did you know Netrek has been ported to over a zilion platforms?",
or "did you know Zach always has the largest posts on netrek-dev?"

anyone ?

Chris


From narcis at luky.nl  Fri Jun 29 16:00:15 2007
From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 23:00:15 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-dev Digest, Vol 28, Issue 15
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1183136405.28528.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>
References: <mailman.1.1183136405.28528.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <CEBFD2BF-FEA1-4E64-8BF3-1046DAC72DB3@luky.nl>


On 29 Jun 2007, at 00:21, John R. Dennison wrote:
On Thu, Jun 28, 2007 at 08:05:47PM +0200, Narcis wrote:

Just in time for the 1.3 release, but it's the last bug i want to
incorporate in this
release. As Andrew indicated: the best place to keep track of the
bugs is in
the bug tracker, but hey at least you reported it, that's already great.

	Did you fix the RCD issue with your client so distress calls
	are actually sent as RCD's and not as standard text macros?

I'm not aware of that bug, did you tick the checkbox in the settings  
to send it as RCD?
It should work it generates the message like:

- (NSString*) rcdString {
	
	NSMutableString *message;
	int length = 16;
		
	message = [NSMutableString stringWithFormat:@"%c%c%c%c%c%c%c%c%c%c%c% 
c%c%c%c",
		(char)((macro_flag ? 1 : 0) << 5 | distress_type),
		(char)(fuel_percentage | 0x80),
		(char)(damage | 0x80),
		(char)(shields | 0x80),
		(char)(etemp | 0x80),
		(char)(wtemp | 0x80),
		(char)(armies | 0x80),
		(char)(short_status | 0x80),
		(char)([close_planet planetId] | 0x80),
		(char)([close_enemy playerId] | 0x80),
		(char)([target_planet planetId] | 0x80),
		(char)([target_enemy playerId] | 0x80),
		(char)([target_player playerId] | 0x80),
		(char)([close_player playerId] | 0x80),
		(char)([target_friend playerId] | 0x80),
		(char)([close_friend playerId] | 0x80)];
	
	// cclist better be terminated properly otherwise we hose here
	int i = 0;
	while (((cclist[i] & 0xc0) == 0xc0)) {
		[message appendFormat:@"%c", (char)(cclist[i] & 0xFF)];
		i++;
	}
	// get the pre/append cclist terminator in there
	[message appendFormat:@"%c", (char)(cclist[i] & 0xFF)]; // strange ??
	
	length = 17 + i;
	if ([prepend_append length] > 0) {
		[message appendString:prepend_append];
	}
	
	// retain string !!
	[message retain];
	
	return message;
}

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From netrek at gmail.com  Fri Jun 29 16:30:39 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 17:30:39 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Tip of the day
In-Reply-To: <07305A6E-32AA-4ED0-AC58-5114120E70A9@luky.nl>
References: <mailman.1.1183136405.28528.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>
	<07305A6E-32AA-4ED0-AC58-5114120E70A9@luky.nl>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0706291430s5e6f58b7odba630c3f226a837@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/29/07, Narcis <narcis at luky.nl> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> the new version of MacTrek has a "Tip of The day" option which will
> display trivia during startup, like:
>
> - the default key maps
> - simple tactics,
> - netrek trivia..
>
> So, if you have some intresting things, i would love to add them like:
>
> "did you know Netrek has been ported to over a zilion platforms?",
> or "did you know Zach always has the largest posts on netrek-dev?"

Hehe. Did you know MacTrek is very cool but does not yet run on Linux ;-)
Did you know the MacTrek author is from Nederland
Maybe give some clue tips also. I thought Rado had longest posts :-P

Zach


From regrado at web.de  Sat Jun 30 10:52:39 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 17:52:39 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] "rado to -dev translation gateway" for joe + Quozl
In-Reply-To: <0q645hstiy.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
References: <20070619202621.GK21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<0q645hstiy.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
Message-ID: <20070630155238.GC3128@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- Andrew K. Bressen wrote on Thu 21.Jun'07 at  2:36:53 -0400 -=

> > - a system to produce "fair" clients: no cheating, no borg.
> 
> Consensus is currently working just fine at keeping borgish
> enhancements subject to feature packeting such that a server admin
> can choose which features are active. Any sufficiently advanced
> programmer (say, 2nd or 3rd year computer science college student)
> can cheat. That isn't going to change any time soon for a whole
> number of reasons.

On side notes (observations on netrek.org): see separate mail.

But with respect to the "consensus", we have this one:
"We've got clients, we've got servers, we've got a network protocol
with RSA client verification, ..."
is then obsolete, if I understood the "consensus" right?

Also: http://www.netrek.org/developer/design.html
"1992: RSA
Since the source for the netrek client is publicly available, anyone
can change, for example, the phaser() routine to automatically hit
the closest target, instead of aiming at the cursor as it does in
most clients; this sort of modification is usually referred to as a
"borg". With the RSA system, servers can require that only clients
which are on an approved list can connect and play. This has allowed
client development to grow without harming the nature of the game."

Now... without RSA (or any replacement) to make such things harder,
_anyone_ without even basic 2-3y cs experience could hack that.
It's not about making things 100% safe, but making it harder for the
clueless spoilsports. If they had enough clue for such hacking, they
wouldn't be such lamers to cheat.

> > - a system to allow trek variants next to each other, ideally
> > cooperatively, but at least peacefully, no discrimination, for
> > people to pick their preferred way of trek fun.
> 
> We have that. No metaserver currently discriminates.

Well... there have been times when people felt like favouring one
server over the others (or type of servers). Especially recently
when Bill's Sturgeon server caught some players this was raised.
I just want to know what the powers feel about it generally.
Neutrality isn't everyone's favourite when it comes to their
favourite pet.

> > For progress you need a direction, and for efficiency that
> > should be coordinated.
> 
> Right now we have a resource shortage, not an organization
> shortage.

Like what resource?

> We are a lean and efficient organization.

Then please add some more progress publicity.
I don't check every page on netrek.org each day to catch every
significant progress that could happen randomly.
Last relevant news: 23-Feb-2007 We're beginning to resurrect the
website.

> Find me five hundred additional active players, a half dozen more
> game servers live, six to ten more coders, web authors, and
> sysadmins, and we might need some of the stuff you post about.

... in the past we had all that and _therefore_ no need for an
organisation (league aside). We need something to get started again.
Chaotic "everyone does what he wants when he wants" (possibly
struggling against each other) dissolves into nothingness. We need
more coordination for the little that we have left.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From regrado at web.de  Sat Jun 30 10:52:49 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 17:52:49 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek.org observations
Message-ID: <20070630155249.GD3128@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

Observations of passages on netrek.org:

"It costs no money to play, there are no ads, and it's open source."
and right next to it "Paradise 2000", that's ... contradictory.

Please use irc://irc.freenode.net/#netrek (with the '#'), to avoid
confusion with a potential "netrek" user.

http://www.netrek.org/servers/machines.php
Please add paradise.homeunix.org (type Paradise), notes:
	- local modifications to ship selection, CV "carrier" is
		CC "calamari" and might work differently (untested).
	- not all ships available (like PT).
	- wormholes enabled.
(2-3 more servers might come later when ready)

Downloads: misses Paradise + TedTurner, add with notes that it can
play both Paradise + Bronco.

http://www.netrek.org/downloads/clients/
- Ad p2k see above: "which means that the Netrek source code is
freely available."
- Ad RSA see "consensus" response in other mail: "To prevent
cheating, all official client binaries authenticate themselves via
RSA to the server. They are called "blessed" clients."
If consensus says it's pointless, drop it altogether.
	Otherwise let's have a functional/ controlled system (even
	if unperfect).
- Ad TedTurner: I read Dave has added some patches recently to
correct errors with torps, but I have no idea where he stored the
code now... maybe you can clarify this with him to correct the link
and propagate it to us.
- Ad Paradise missing: TT is just flashier, but basically they do
the same. It's smaller/ leaner and therefore preference for some.
Paradise still works fine like brmh.

http://www.netrek.org/servers/variants.php
Link Paradise to http://paradise.netrek.org/

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From jrd at gerdesas.com  Sat Jun 30 11:23:15 2007
From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 11:23:15 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] [michael@life-sucks.org: More Full Updates]
Message-ID: <20070630162315.GZ25316@mail.beanhq.com>

Received this from Michael in private mail and am forwarding it onward.




							John

----- Forwarded message from michael denison <michael at life-sucks.org> -----

> Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:03:12 -0500 (CDT)
> From: michael at life-sucks.org (michael denison)
> To: jrd at gerdesas.com
> Subject: More Full Updates
> 
> 
> Even when the server claims "2%" packet loss, every 30 seconds
> or so my tactical will fill up with stale torps and my galactic
> will have a giant phaser flying aorund the screen. But I can't hit
> full update enough, because I'm told to be quiet.
> 
> Can we increase the full updates now that there is no longer a
> load issue with modern equipment, or possibly even make them
> automatic for clients every 10 seconds?

----- End forwarded message -----

-- 
"I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones."
As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to
be put through to an engineer.

"My other computer is your windows box."
                                     Ralf Hildebrandt
<sxem> trying to play sturgeon while it's under attack is apparently not fun.
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From quozl at us.netrek.org  Sat Jun 30 20:22:54 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 11:22:54 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek.org observations
In-Reply-To: <20070630155249.GD3128@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070630155249.GD3128@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20070701012254.GB5503@us.netrek.org>

On Sat, Jun 30, 2007 at 05:52:49PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> "It costs no money to play, there are no ads, and it's open source."
> and right next to it "Paradise 2000", that's ... contradictory.

Agreed.  netrek.org maintainers please either remove the term open
source or remove Paradise 2000.  Or balance it with a footnote "except
Paradise 2000".  Or use "mostly" as a qualifier.

> http://www.netrek.org/servers/machines.php
> [...]
> (2-3 more servers might come later when ready)

netrek.org maintainers please avoid statements about futures unless they
are backed by substantial evidence.  People mistrust web sites that
claim things that do not happen, and as content maintainers you cannot
ensure this predicted event happens.

> - Ad TedTurner: I read Dave has added some patches recently to
> correct errors with torps, but I have no idea where he stored the
> code now... maybe you can clarify this with him to correct the link
> and propagate it to us.

Please do your own research, Rado.  Unreleased code is not worth the
paper it isn't printed on.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Sat Jun 30 20:28:49 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 11:28:49 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] [michael@life-sucks.org: More Full Updates]
In-Reply-To: <20070630162315.GZ25316@mail.beanhq.com>
References: <20070630162315.GZ25316@mail.beanhq.com>
Message-ID: <20070701012849.GC5503@us.netrek.org>

Michael Denison wrote:
> Even when the server claims "2%" packet loss, every 30 seconds
> or so my tactical will fill up with stale torps and my galactic
> will have a giant phaser flying aorund the screen. But I can't hit
> full update enough, because I'm told to be quiet.

Which client is this?  What mode is it operating in?  TCP, UDP, short
packets, or normal packets?

Torpedo removal from screen on the normal packets is handled in either
of two ways:

1.  for torpedos that don't hit anything and are not self-det'd, the
status is set to TFREE and included in an SP_TORP_INFO packet, 

2.  for torpedos that explode by det or hitting ships, the status is to
to TEXPLODE in an SP_TORP_INFO packet, but the TFREE is never seen, and
the client is required to time it.

I suspect this might be a bug.  I wonder if it relates to Michael's
observations.

> Can we increase the full updates now that there is no longer a
> load issue with modern equipment, or possibly even make them
> automatic for clients every 10 seconds?

We should better understand the cause.  Requesting updates is just a
hack.  Can he provide a recording?

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From netrek at gmail.com  Sat Jun 30 21:07:23 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 22:07:23 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] [michael@life-sucks.org: More Full Updates]
In-Reply-To: <20070701012849.GC5503@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070630162315.GZ25316@mail.beanhq.com>
	<20070701012849.GC5503@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0706301907t5274d36ah27ac36c5ae3e80d8@mail.gmail.com>

Anecdotally, I have experienced this same behaviour in the past.

Zach

On 6/30/07, James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote:
> Michael Denison wrote:
> > Even when the server claims "2%" packet loss, every 30 seconds
> > or so my tactical will fill up with stale torps and my galactic
> > will have a giant phaser flying aorund the screen. But I can't hit
> > full update enough, because I'm told to be quiet.
>
> Which client is this?  What mode is it operating in?  TCP, UDP, short
> packets, or normal packets?
>
> Torpedo removal from screen on the normal packets is handled in either
> of two ways:
>
> 1.  for torpedos that don't hit anything and are not self-det'd, the
> status is set to TFREE and included in an SP_TORP_INFO packet,
>
> 2.  for torpedos that explode by det or hitting ships, the status is to
> to TEXPLODE in an SP_TORP_INFO packet, but the TFREE is never seen, and
> the client is required to time it.
>
> I suspect this might be a bug.  I wonder if it relates to Michael's
> observations.
>
> > Can we increase the full updates now that there is no longer a
> > load issue with modern equipment, or possibly even make them
> > automatic for clients every 10 seconds?
>
> We should better understand the cause.  Requesting updates is just a
> hack.  Can he provide a recording?
>
> --
> James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/
>
> _______________________________________________
> netrek-dev mailing list
> netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
> http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev
>


From billbalcerski at gmail.com  Sat Jun 30 22:38:12 2007
From: billbalcerski at gmail.com (Bill Balcerski)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 23:38:12 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] [michael@life-sucks.org: More Full Updates]
In-Reply-To: <20070701012849.GC5503@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070630162315.GZ25316@mail.beanhq.com>
	<20070701012849.GC5503@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <45ab86180706302038h65bf9d9ai616fdbe470af3bbd@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/30/07, James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote:
>
> Michael Denison wrote:
> > Even when the server claims "2%" packet loss, every 30 seconds
> > or so my tactical will fill up with stale torps and my galactic
> > will have a giant phaser flying aorund the screen. But I can't hit
> > full update enough, because I'm told to be quiet.
>
> Which client is this?  What mode is it operating in?  TCP, UDP, short
> packets, or normal packets?
>
> Torpedo removal from screen on the normal packets is handled in either
> of two ways:
>
> 1.  for torpedos that don't hit anything and are not self-det'd, the
> status is set to TFREE and included in an SP_TORP_INFO packet,
>
> 2.  for torpedos that explode by det or hitting ships, the status is to
> to TEXPLODE in an SP_TORP_INFO packet, but the TFREE is never seen, and
> the client is required to time it.
>
> I suspect this might be a bug.  I wonder if it relates to Michael's
> observations.


Torps/phasers won't get refreshed if the TFREE/TEXPLODE packet is lost, and
no further weapons packets are received (ie there is no fighting on screen,
such as just after you died and ressed back at your homeworld).  This
happens even in low loss situations on occassion, as Michael seems to be
describing.  For clients I have played on, requesting a full update was
never a big issue, seemed like there was about a 20-30 sec window between
valid requests.

Bill
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From netrek at gmail.com  Sat Jun 30 23:00:01 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 00:00:01 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] [michael@life-sucks.org: More Full Updates]
In-Reply-To: <45ab86180706302038h65bf9d9ai616fdbe470af3bbd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070630162315.GZ25316@mail.beanhq.com>
	<20070701012849.GC5503@us.netrek.org>
	<45ab86180706302038h65bf9d9ai616fdbe470af3bbd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0706302100k6eeb33b6h19e7c564e0cf2c46@mail.gmail.com>

I think this may be the cause of the hangs I sometimes get at race
screen after dying.
I never finish the res nor do I see any ghostbust message in the
client console. It just hangs after says "You've been thumped by a
torp from foo."

Zach

On 6/30/07, Bill Balcerski <billbalcerski at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6/30/07, James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote:
> > Michael Denison wrote:
> > > Even when the server claims "2%" packet loss, every 30 seconds
> > > or so my tactical will fill up with stale torps and my galactic
> > > will have a giant phaser flying aorund the screen. But I can't hit
> > > full update enough, because I'm told to be quiet.
> >
> > Which client is this?  What mode is it operating in?  TCP, UDP, short
> > packets, or normal packets?
> >
> > Torpedo removal from screen on the normal packets is handled in either
> > of two ways:
> >
> > 1.  for torpedos that don't hit anything and are not self-det'd, the
> > status is set to TFREE and included in an SP_TORP_INFO packet,
> >
> > 2.  for torpedos that explode by det or hitting ships, the status is to
> > to TEXPLODE in an SP_TORP_INFO packet, but the TFREE is never seen, and
> > the client is required to time it.
> >
> > I suspect this might be a bug.  I wonder if it relates to Michael's
> > observations.
>
>
> Torps/phasers won't get refreshed if the TFREE/TEXPLODE packet is lost, and
> no further weapons packets are received (ie there is no fighting on screen,
> such as just after you died and ressed back at your homeworld).  This
> happens even in low loss situations on occassion, as Michael seems to be
> describing.  For clients I have played on, requesting a full update was
> never a big issue, seemed like there was about a 20-30 sec window between
> valid requests.
>
> Bill
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> netrek-dev mailing list
> netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
> http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev
>
>


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Sat Jun 30 23:11:46 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 14:11:46 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] [michael@life-sucks.org: More Full Updates]
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0706302100k6eeb33b6h19e7c564e0cf2c46@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070630162315.GZ25316@mail.beanhq.com>
	<20070701012849.GC5503@us.netrek.org>
	<45ab86180706302038h65bf9d9ai616fdbe470af3bbd@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0706302100k6eeb33b6h19e7c564e0cf2c46@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070701041146.GA8481@us.netrek.org>

On Sun, Jul 01, 2007 at 12:00:01AM -0400, Zach wrote:
> I think this may be the cause of the hangs I sometimes get at race
> screen after dying.
> I never finish the res nor do I see any ghostbust message in the
> client console. It just hangs after says "You've been thumped by a
> torp from foo."

Which client is this?  What mode is it operating in?  TCP, UDP, short
packets, or normal packets?  If in UDP mode, does it also occur in TCP
mode?

Sounds like normal packet loss.  Avoid lossy connections, and turn on
enforced state.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From netrek at gmail.com  Sat Jun 30 23:31:54 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 00:31:54 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] [michael@life-sucks.org: More Full Updates]
In-Reply-To: <20070701041146.GA8481@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070630162315.GZ25316@mail.beanhq.com>
	<20070701012849.GC5503@us.netrek.org>
	<45ab86180706302038h65bf9d9ai616fdbe470af3bbd@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0706302100k6eeb33b6h19e7c564e0cf2c46@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070701041146.GA8481@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0706302131r1db56705l97fb5e2343e1449@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/1/07, James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote:
>
> Which client is this?  What mode is it operating in?  TCP, UDP, short
> packets, or normal packets?  If in UDP mode, does it also occur in TCP
> mode?
>
> Sounds like normal packet loss.  Avoid lossy connections, and turn on
> enforced state.

Have seen it with Netrek 1999, Netrek XP Mod. UDP, short packets. No
I've only seen it in UDP mode, that's cause I rarely play in TCP. How
do you enable enforced state?
Can I set that in my rc file?

Zach