From quozl at us.netrek.org Fri Aug 1 01:55:38 2008 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 16:55:38 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-client-cow-3.2.6 released In-Reply-To: <20080729120802.GA32236@us.netrek.org> References: <20080729120802.GA32236@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20080801065538.GA30128@us.netrek.org> x86_64 build on Debian Etch completed using a local pbuilder. http://netrek.org/files/COW/netrek-client-cow_3.2.6-1_amd64.deb Needs testing. Install, run netrek-client-cow, expect metaserver window. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From ameer_armaly at hotmail.com Sat Aug 2 11:05:25 2008 From: ameer_armaly at hotmail.com (Ameer Armaly) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 12:05:25 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] making netrek accessible for the blind Message-ID: Hi all. My name is Ameer Armaly, and I am a blind programmer. I recently came across a reference to Netrek from a friend who told me that it would b e nice to make it playable by the blind through the use of stario sound and speech. So I started researching: at a glance, there seems to be no definitive protocol reference. If someone could point me to one that would be great; I could then write a whole new client with speech support. Failing that, what would be the best client to modify for the windows operating system? Preferably, it should use windows standard controls wherever possible so that any changes I make are relatively clean as opposed to having to rip out the whole UI. For example, I have seen that some clients do not present the list of servers in an actual list box; this would have to be modified for optimal accessibility. Any advice you all could lend would be appreciated. Thanks, Ameer -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20080802/81bbbc52/attachment.htm From mark at mark.mielke.cc Sat Aug 2 12:08:55 2008 From: mark at mark.mielke.cc (Mark Mielke) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2008 13:08:55 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] making netrek accessible for the blind In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <489494A7.3060004@mark.mielke.cc> Ameer Armaly wrote: > Hi all. My name is Ameer Armaly, and I am a blind programmer. I > recently came across a reference to Netrek from a friend who told me > that it would b e nice to make it playable by the blind through the > use of stario sound and speech. > So I started researching: at a glance, there seems to be no definitive > protocol reference. If someone could point me to one that would be > great; I could then write a whole new client with speech support. > Failing that, what would be the best client to modify for the windows > operating system? Preferably, it should use windows standard controls > wherever possible so that any changes I make are relatively clean as > opposed to having to rip out the whole UI. For example, I have seen > that some clients do not present the list of servers in an actual list > box; this would have to be modified for optimal accessibility. > Any advice you all could lend would be appreciated. If you were truly trying for an interface accessible to the blind - I would skip the GUI altogether. I don't see how this would work though. There's no way you could dodge 20 incoming torpedoes by sound alone. Cheers, mark P.S. My father is a completely blind software designer. -- Mark Mielke -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20080802/b18c1c96/attachment.htm From netrek at gmail.com Sat Aug 2 18:41:04 2008 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach Uram) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 19:41:04 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] making netrek accessible for the blind In-Reply-To: <489494A7.3060004@mark.mielke.cc> References: <489494A7.3060004@mark.mielke.cc> Message-ID: I wish you success Ameer. Zach From quozl at us.netrek.org Sat Aug 2 19:13:54 2008 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 10:13:54 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] making netrek accessible for the blind In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080803001354.GA5985@us.netrek.org> G'day Ameer, Nice to hear from you. You aim high. It would be an interesting challenge. As Mark points out, some styles of play would not be possible, but we have players who appear to be blind already, *chuckle*. You are correct, there is no definitive protocol reference. We continue to change minor parts of the protocol, in an upward compatible fashion, and choose not to maintain both the protocol implementation and a protocol definition. You can find a definition of the protocol packets in the file packets.h in the include directory of the server C language source. At the start of the file at about line 22 is a general outline of the protocol. Here is a download link to the file: http://james.tooraweenah.com/darcs/netrek-server/Vanilla/include/packets.h The best client to begin modifying would be either Netrek XP 2009 or my Python client, I shall cover both: 1. Netrek XP 2009, is a non-standard GUI that is intended for Microsoft Windows, consisting of C source code that has been maintained by various authors since 1986, a total of 66289 lines of code, in 112 source files, here is a download link, fourteen megabytes of ZIP file: http://netrek.org/files/NetrekXP_2009/netrekXP2009src-v1.0.zip Netrek XP 2009 source is also available from CVS on Sourceforge. The Netrek XP 2009 client might be the best one to start with if you wish to adapt it to use a Windows standard GUI, since it already builds on Microsoft Windows. It would be a huge job though. 2. my Python client, is a non-standard GUI that is intended for Linux, Mac OS X, or Microsoft Windows, consisting of Python source code that has been written mostly by me in the past year, a total of 4965 lines of code, in 13 source files, here is a link to a darcs repository: http://james.tooraweenah.com/darcs/netrek-client-pygame The Python client is probably the best one to start with to understand the protocol and communication with the server, so as to start a new client for sound and screen reader technologies. Ripping out the pygame graphics isn't difficult, it has been done to make protocol unit tests. If you have any questions, please ask by posting to the mailing list. -- Unrelated comment follows. I'm aware of some of the accessibility technologies available, as I was at a talk by Jason White at this year's Linux Conference in Melbourne, Australia. Some links follow. Abstract of talk: http://www.linux.org.au/2008/programme/detail%3FTalkID=42.html Slides in PDF or HTML: http://mirror.linux.org.au/pub/linux.conf.au/2008/slides/042-jason-by_sight_and_touch.tar.gz Recording in ogg format: http://mirror.linux.org.au/pub/linux.conf.au/2008/Thu/mel8-042.ogg Recording in speex format: http://mirror.linux.org.au/pub/linux.conf.au/2008/Thu/mel8-042.spx -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From netrek at gmail.com Sat Aug 2 20:47:34 2008 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach Uram) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 21:47:34 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] bronco t mode suffering Message-ID: Numerous times today when I and 2 other players I have communicated with just now (Batduck being one) have checked the metaserver we have seen enough people for t (or more than enough) but 1/2 were on pickled if 8 players total and 1/2 on continuum ANDOR warped, and if greater than 8 players total about 4-5 would be on pickled and the rest on continuum ANDOR warped. This is really hurting bronco t mode. Anecdotally I have seen a drop in t mode on pickled all this past week. I hope something can be done to encourage players to play on pickled. A passive technique is preferable but if that doesn't work we should consider something more proactive. Right now we have 5 on pickled, 2 on warped and 1 on continuum. When I joined 15 minutes ago there were 4 on warped, 5 on continuum and 4 on pickled. Zach From quozl at us.netrek.org Sat Aug 2 22:03:46 2008 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 13:03:46 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] bronco t mode suffering In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080803030346.GA16637@us.netrek.org> At least three people have told me they don't find players on pickled particularly welcoming. One even runs his own server which isn't on the metaservers, and encourages his friends there. We certainly don't need more servers though. We need more players, and clients that meet the eye candy requirements of potential players. I don't think there's anything to be gained by discussing this. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From ameer_armaly at hotmail.com Sun Aug 3 12:47:23 2008 From: ameer_armaly at hotmail.com (Ameer Armaly) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 13:47:23 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] making netrek accessible for the blind References: Message-ID: Interesting. I'll have a look at this Python client; otherwise the best bet may be to role my own from scratch. My intent is to combine stario sound with screen readers or other speech technologies in order to communicate the relevant information to the player. For what it's worth, here are my current ideas based on my study of the game as well as similar accessible games. These are naturally subject to change based on future results. If you have any thoughts, I would appreciate hearing them. 1. Torpedos: Indicate their angle through stario position, and distance through any or all of pitch, rate of beeping, and volume. 2. Other ships: Indicate their angle through stario position. Indicate size via different sounds for each. Indicate distance through volume. Indicate team through a view command that speaks it as well as all of the above. 3. Tracking: provide a means to track any object so that it's angle relative to the player's ship and distance are updated regularly through speech. Provide a means to calculate a firing solution of some sort as well. 4. Planets: Identify planets primarily through speech. Indicate orbit through speech as well. Indicate bombing through sounds and indicate progress through speech. 5. Messaging: Precede reading of the message with a sound, and provide a nice pop-up window to type in custom messages. Thanks to everyone for your advice. I will keep you all informed of any progress I make. Thanks, Ameer From netrek at gmail.com Sun Aug 3 14:59:50 2008 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach Uram) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 15:59:50 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] making netrek accessible for the blind In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Ameer, I am curious how you plan to let the player know their heading; that is which direction their ship is pointing. I suppose maybe inform them when game starts they are at 12 o'clock and then every time they change direction say something like "now heading 3 o'clock" or you could use degrees or radians. I'm also wondering how the player will know where each planet is, the planet's name and how many armies it has? For the team message board you could use text to speech translator but if there is a lot of chatter will the player be able to process those messages plus the navigation and other sounds concurrently? Zach From quozl at us.netrek.org Sun Aug 3 18:44:48 2008 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 09:44:48 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] making netrek accessible for the blind In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080803234448.GA11213@us.netrek.org> It may not be necessary to reveal heading, if all other sources of information are made relative to current heading. However, this will make communication slightly more difficult, since players using absolute heading clients will use up, down, left and right, despite the availability of coordinate rotation feature by the clients. That is to say, in a Romulan (top left) versus Federation (bottom left) game, some players on the Federation side use "move up" to mean approach the front, and on the Romulan side use "move down" to mean the same thing. A client that uses relative heading will improve communication, perhaps. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From netrek at gmail.com Sun Aug 3 19:53:36 2008 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach Uram) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 20:53:36 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] making netrek accessible for the blind In-Reply-To: <20080803234448.GA11213@us.netrek.org> References: <20080803234448.GA11213@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 7:44 PM, James Cameron wrote: > It may not be necessary to reveal heading, if all other sources of > information are made relative to current heading. [...] Ah I see. Another idea I had was breaking the game board up into uniform squares and then specify heading that way. Besides navigation it could be used to identify enemy and friendly ships. Needless to say such a client will have to be borg to give the needed functionality but I think playing netrek sightless is enough of a challenge so I for one would notr dare begrude them borg features. You could also specify velocity so a player might here "F2 warp 9 sector 3,2", with stereo you could use one channel for navigation and weapon alerts and the other for team messages etc. Zach From mark at mark.mielke.cc Sun Aug 3 20:27:51 2008 From: mark at mark.mielke.cc (Mark Mielke) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2008 21:27:51 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] making netrek accessible for the blind In-Reply-To: References: <20080803234448.GA11213@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <48965B17.6070705@mark.mielke.cc> Zach Uram wrote: > Ah I see. Another idea I had was breaking the game board up into > uniform squares and then specify heading that way. Besides navigation > it could be used to identify enemy and friendly ships. Needless to say > such a client will have to be borg to give the needed functionality > but I think playing netrek sightless is enough of a challenge so I > for one would notr dare begrude them borg features. You could also > specify velocity so a player might here "F2 warp 9 sector 3,2", with > stereo you could use one channel for navigation and weapon alerts and > the other for team messages etc. > Hey in softball there is a "pinch hitter". Why not be able to give directions to a tactical officer that happens to be automated? :-) As long as the tactical officer is not TOO good... :-) Cheers, mark -- Mark Mielke From netrek at gmail.com Sun Aug 3 21:10:12 2008 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach Uram) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 22:10:12 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] making netrek accessible for the blind In-Reply-To: <48965B17.6070705@mark.mielke.cc> References: <20080803234448.GA11213@us.netrek.org> <48965B17.6070705@mark.mielke.cc> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 9:27 PM, Mark Mielke wrote: > > Hey in softball there is a "pinch hitter". Why not be able to give > directions to a tactical officer that happens to be automated? :-) > > As long as the tactical officer is not TOO good... :-) Hey that is a good idea :-) Yeah don't want it to be hyper borg, but take the Iggy code and modify it or start from scratch. Zach From ameer_armaly at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 12:29:39 2008 From: ameer_armaly at hotmail.com (Ameer Armaly) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 13:29:39 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] making netrek accessible for the blind References: Message-ID: My current idea is to announce the heading in absolute degrees through speech upon request, and when refering to objects, allow for either of the following: view relative to the bow, where 5s means five degrees off starboard or to the right, or just view with relative course where something like mark 5 means +5 degrees. This is how it's handled in a submarine simulator game we have. As to processing of information, that's going to depend on the rate of speech and how compact the information is. I personally read at approximately 500 words per minute; some read slower, some read faster. The trick is going to be compacting the information enough that an average person would find it doable to manage all the info coming in at once. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 1:00 PM Subject: netrek-dev Digest, Vol 42, Issue 4 > Send netrek-dev mailing list submissions to > netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > netrek-dev-request at us.netrek.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > netrek-dev-owner at us.netrek.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of netrek-dev digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: making netrek accessible for the blind (Ameer Armaly) > 2. Re: making netrek accessible for the blind (Zach Uram) > 3. Re: making netrek accessible for the blind (James Cameron) > 4. Re: making netrek accessible for the blind (Zach Uram) > 5. Re: making netrek accessible for the blind (Mark Mielke) > 6. Re: making netrek accessible for the blind (Zach Uram) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 13:47:23 -0400 > From: "Ameer Armaly" > Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] making netrek accessible for the blind > To: > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Interesting. I'll have a look at this Python client; otherwise the best > bet > may be to role my own from scratch. My intent is to combine stario sound > with screen readers or other speech technologies in order to communicate > the > relevant information to the player. > For what it's worth, here are my current ideas based on my study of the > game > as well as similar accessible games. These are naturally subject to change > based on future results. If you have any thoughts, I would appreciate > hearing them. > 1. Torpedos: Indicate their angle through stario position, and distance > through any or all of pitch, rate of beeping, and volume. > 2. Other ships: Indicate their angle through stario position. Indicate > size > via different sounds for each. Indicate distance through volume. Indicate > team through a view command that speaks it as well as all of the above. > 3. Tracking: provide a means to track any object so that it's angle > relative > to the player's ship and distance are updated regularly through speech. > Provide a means to calculate a firing solution of some sort as well. > 4. Planets: Identify planets primarily through speech. Indicate orbit > through speech as well. Indicate bombing through sounds and indicate > progress through speech. > 5. Messaging: Precede reading of the message with a sound, and provide a > nice pop-up window to type in custom messages. > Thanks to everyone for your advice. I will keep you all informed of any > progress I make. > Thanks, > > Ameer > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 15:59:50 -0400 > From: "Zach Uram" > Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] making netrek accessible for the blind > To: "Netrek Development Mailing List" > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Hi Ameer, > > I am curious how you plan to let the player know their heading; that > is which direction their ship is pointing. I suppose maybe inform them > when game starts they are at 12 o'clock and then every time they > change direction say something like "now heading 3 o'clock" or you > could use degrees or radians. I'm also wondering how the player will > know where each planet is, the planet's name and how many armies it > has? For the team message board you could use text to speech > translator but if there is a lot of chatter will the player be able to > process those messages plus the navigation and other sounds > concurrently? > > Zach > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 09:44:48 +1000 > From: James Cameron > Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] making netrek accessible for the blind > To: Netrek Development Mailing List > Message-ID: <20080803234448.GA11213 at us.netrek.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > It may not be necessary to reveal heading, if all other sources of > information are made relative to current heading. > > However, this will make communication slightly more difficult, since > players using absolute heading clients will use up, down, left and > right, despite the availability of coordinate rotation feature by the > clients. > > That is to say, in a Romulan (top left) versus Federation (bottom left) > game, some players on the Federation side use "move up" to mean approach > the front, and on the Romulan side use "move down" to mean the same > thing. > > A client that uses relative heading will improve communication, perhaps. > > -- > James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 20:53:36 -0400 > From: "Zach Uram" > Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] making netrek accessible for the blind > To: "Netrek Development Mailing List" > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 7:44 PM, James Cameron wrote: >> It may not be necessary to reveal heading, if all other sources of >> information are made relative to current heading. > [...] > > Ah I see. Another idea I had was breaking the game board up into > uniform squares and then specify heading that way. Besides navigation > it could be used to identify enemy and friendly ships. Needless to say > such a client will have to be borg to give the needed functionality > but I think playing netrek sightless is enough of a challenge so I > for one would notr dare begrude them borg features. You could also > specify velocity so a player might here "F2 warp 9 sector 3,2", with > stereo you could use one channel for navigation and weapon alerts and > the other for team messages etc. > > Zach > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2008 21:27:51 -0400 > From: Mark Mielke > Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] making netrek accessible for the blind > To: Netrek Development Mailing List > Message-ID: <48965B17.6070705 at mark.mielke.cc> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Zach Uram wrote: >> Ah I see. Another idea I had was breaking the game board up into >> uniform squares and then specify heading that way. Besides navigation >> it could be used to identify enemy and friendly ships. Needless to say >> such a client will have to be borg to give the needed functionality >> but I think playing netrek sightless is enough of a challenge so I >> for one would notr dare begrude them borg features. You could also >> specify velocity so a player might here "F2 warp 9 sector 3,2", with >> stereo you could use one channel for navigation and weapon alerts and >> the other for team messages etc. >> > > Hey in softball there is a "pinch hitter". Why not be able to give > directions to a tactical officer that happens to be automated? :-) > > As long as the tactical officer is not TOO good... :-) > > Cheers, > mark > > -- > Mark Mielke > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 22:10:12 -0400 > From: "Zach Uram" > Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] making netrek accessible for the blind > To: "Netrek Development Mailing List" > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 9:27 PM, Mark Mielke wrote: >> >> Hey in softball there is a "pinch hitter". Why not be able to give >> directions to a tactical officer that happens to be automated? :-) >> >> As long as the tactical officer is not TOO good... :-) > > Hey that is a good idea :-) Yeah don't want it to be hyper borg, but > take the Iggy code and modify it or start from scratch. > > Zach > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > netrek-dev mailing list > netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev > > > End of netrek-dev Digest, Vol 42, Issue 4 > ***************************************** > From netrek at gmail.com Thu Aug 28 19:47:19 2008 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach Uram) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 20:47:19 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] fyi: brmh 2.5 blessed binary dependency warning Message-ID: Seems you need GNU libc version 2.4 at least to run this. I have 2.3.6 and it fails: ./BRMH-2.5.0-x86-Linux-20080828-beta: /lib/tls/i686/cmov/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.4' not found (required by ./BRMH-2.5.0-x86-Linux-20080828-beta) I have: libc6 2.3.6-0ubuntu20 GNU C Library: Shared libraries and Timezone ldd shows the same error: ldd BRMH-2.5.0-x86-Linux-20080828-beta ./BRMH-2.5.0-x86-Linux-20080828-beta: /lib/tls/i686/cmov/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.4' not found (required by ./BRMH-2.5.0-x86-Linux-20080828-beta) linux-gate.so.1 => (0xffffe000) libX11.so.6 => /usr/lib/libX11.so.6 (0xb7e50000) libgmp.so.3 => /usr/lib/libgmp.so.3 (0xb7e20000) libm.so.6 => /lib/tls/i686/cmov/libm.so.6 (0xb7dfe000) libc.so.6 => /lib/tls/i686/cmov/libc.so.6 (0xb7ccf000) libXau.so.6 => /usr/lib/libXau.so.6 (0xb7ccc000) libdl.so.2 => /lib/tls/i686/cmov/libdl.so.2 (0xb7cc8000) /lib/ld-linux.so.2 (0xb7f43000) When I get my new machine I can try it with a fresher libc. Zach From quozl at us.netrek.org Fri Aug 29 07:43:01 2008 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 22:43:01 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] fyi: brmh 2.5 blessed binary dependency warning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080829124301.GA6340@us.netrek.org> On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 08:47:19PM -0400, Zach Uram wrote: > Seems you need GNU libc version 2.4 at least to run this. This is intentional. > When I get my new machine I can try it with a fresher libc. (a) your machine troubles are not a design constraint of our software, there's nobody else in the entire world who wants to run Netrek off an antique live-CD on a decrepit laptop, you're a user community with a population of one, (b) downloading a copy of libc.so, and adding the directory to LD_LIBRARY_PATH before running the binary should be a practical workaround, (no, I do not wish to support this workaround), (c) compiling from source will link with the libc you have already, and this too should be a practical workaround. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/