From netrek at gmail.com  Mon Mar  3 14:52:47 2008
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 15:52:47 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-server-vanilla-2.14.0 released
In-Reply-To: <20080227003041.GA5449@us.netrek.org>
References: <20080227003041.GA5449@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0803031252k3abc1052q219932a7a5af3ff8@mail.gmail.com>

I just pulled from your repo in darcs and I am seeing a rather old
date associated with the 2.4.10 release:

Vanilla/ChangeLog:

Mon Nov 19 17:58:45 2007  James Cameron  <quozl at us.netrek.org>

        * netrek-server-vanilla-2.14.0 released

Zach


From list2rado at gmx.de  Wed Mar  5 12:14:23 2008
From: list2rado at gmx.de (Rado S)
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 19:14:23 +0100
Subject: [netrek-dev] metaserver solicitation usage: drop/ update
	lost	servers
In-Reply-To: <20080228220527.GA8205@us.netrek.org>
References: <20080222190638.GB15371@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20080224105559.GB22440@us.netrek.org>
	<20080224141842.GA13672@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20080224223517.GA5286@us.netrek.org>
	<20080225124012.GA16991@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20080225232315.GB4883@us.netrek.org>
	<20080226174713.GB14691@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20080226224645.GB4739@us.netrek.org>
	<20080227182403.GA29506@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20080228220527.GA8205@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20080305181422.GC16136@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

Hoi, sorry for the delay.

=- James Cameron wrote on Fri 29.Feb'08 at  9:05:27 +1100 -=

> On Wed, Feb 27, 2008 at 07:24:03PM +0100, Rado S wrote:
> > Are you the only person that I have to convince?
> > If so, then because you're the only one who decides?
> > Or because you're the only interested?
> > (besides me)
> 
> I checked with some others via IRC, and the impression I get is
> that we're talking about a corner case, a trivial issue, that they
> don't believe they need to spend time on.


From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Tue Mar  4 16:28:50 2008
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 22:28:50 -0000
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <mailman.0.1204740905.31650.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>

it is an original problem, however, suggesting to rest the case with
a workaround rather than a fix.
Just because I'm the only one reporting it doesn't mean it would
affect just me.
The "side-effect of concentrating players on well known servers" by
not solving the 2 issues is again rather a workaround (and indirect
policy choice) than a real solution to establish some direct listing
policy.

However, I see that the interest is generally low, so I cease my
case.

> > This might be a problem: you quickly pick up any issue, solve it
> > your way, and nobody else feels the need to participate.
>=20
> Good point, I'll try to stay quiet for a couple of weeks hoping
> for others to solve issues.

I, too, hope for more caretakers.

> > Could you handle key-management (i.e. client approval) with the
> > same efficiency, since it's basically about code control, given
> > how well you're organized for code review?
>=20
> No. It isn't about code control alone, the job would also require
> running clients on various operating systems. I'm just not set up
> for that.

Uh, why other platforms?
Isn't it enough to see the "core" is OK and once it passed ask for
others with access to required platforms to help out?
Porting should not be as much a problem as understanding the meaning
for code changes, which you can do well.

Anyway, you could start out small with what you _can_ do, and let
others follow slowly.

--=20
=A9 Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From netrek at gmail.com  Fri Mar  7 19:48:02 2008
From: netrek at gmail.com (netrek at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 20:48:02 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] darcs patch: Testing remote repo (and 2 more)
Message-ID: <E1JXoAM-00009x-Dz@tellurium.club.cc.cmu.edu>

Wed Jan 23 01:00:22 EST 2008  netrek at gmail.com
  * Testing remote repo

Tue Mar  4 01:24:00 EST 2008  netrek at gmail.com
  * cleanup of name.c compilation and explanation
  README directed users to "make name.c" but since no Makefile has been yet generated from Makefile.in (pristine sources) I provide a means for them to quickly compile name.c via a shell script which calls a Makefile and thus they can find out the version right away without having to run ./configure

Fri Mar  7 20:45:59 EST 2008  netrek at gmail.com
  * spellchecking
  Corrected spelling errors using ispell library in GNU Emacs.
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From netrek at gmail.com  Fri Mar  7 21:33:50 2008
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 22:33:50 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] fyi: repo online
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0803071933m13722b1fpf155cc237b53d0fb@mail.gmail.com>

My repo is online:
http://www.club.cc.cmu.edu/~chaos/netrek-server/

Zach


From jrd at gerdesas.com  Fri Mar  7 21:51:05 2008
From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison)
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 21:51:05 -0600
Subject: [netrek-dev] fyi: repo online
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0803071933m13722b1fpf155cc237b53d0fb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ecfa260c0803071933m13722b1fpf155cc237b53d0fb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080308035105.GC21679@mail.beanhq.com>

On Fri, Mar 07, 2008 at 10:33:50PM -0500, Zach wrote:
> My repo is online:
> http://www.club.cc.cmu.edu/~chaos/netrek-server/

	And please explain why you spammed 126K of nonesense to the list
	when you have a repo on-line?




							John

-- 
"I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones."
As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to
be put through to an engineer.

"My other computer is your windows box."
                                     Ralf Hildebrandt
<sxem> trying to play sturgeon while it's under attack is apparently not fun.
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From netrek at gmail.com  Fri Mar  7 22:08:19 2008
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 23:08:19 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] fyi: repo online
In-Reply-To: <20080308035105.GC21679@mail.beanhq.com>
References: <ecfa260c0803071933m13722b1fpf155cc237b53d0fb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080308035105.GC21679@mail.beanhq.com>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0803072008t2f283f9chb26337c160c37765@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry was following the procedure in the docs.

Zach

On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 10:51 PM, John R. Dennison <jrd at gerdesas.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 07, 2008 at 10:33:50PM -0500, Zach wrote:
>  > My repo is online:
>  > http://www.club.cc.cmu.edu/~chaos/netrek-server/
>
>         And please explain why you spammed 126K of nonesense to the list
>         when you have a repo on-line?
>
>
>
>
>                                                         John
>
>  --
>  "I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones."
>  As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to
>  be put through to an engineer.
>
>  "My other computer is your windows box."
>                                      Ralf Hildebrandt
>  <sxem> trying to play sturgeon while it's under attack is apparently not fun.
>
> _______________________________________________
>  netrek-dev mailing list
>  netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
>  http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev
>
>


From karthik at karthik.com  Fri Mar  7 22:36:44 2008
From: karthik at karthik.com (Karthik Arumugham)
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 23:36:44 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] darcs patch: Testing remote repo (and 2 more)
In-Reply-To: <E1JXoAM-00009x-Dz@tellurium.club.cc.cmu.edu>
References: <E1JXoAM-00009x-Dz@tellurium.club.cc.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <1EC89E4F-06A0-4AB2-AAD0-4A800A925BC5@karthik.com>

On Mar 7, 2008, at 8:48 PM, netrek at gmail.com wrote:

> -	- robots are not recognising Cas, reported by KaraokeBar, Australia,
> +	- robots are not recognizing Cas, reported by KaraokeBar, Australia,

You are aware that different parts of the world use different  
spellings for certain English words such as recognize/recognise,  
factorize/factorise, etc, of which you have "fixed" quite a few  
occurrences, correct?

Please back out your patch and re-record it without such changes. I do  
not believe that we should be forcing American English on non-American  
developers.

I also see occurrences of you having used ispell to correct legitimate  
spelling errors, but then you have ignored other errors that are on  
the exact same lines, causing me to wonder how closely you reviewed  
the changes being made:
-    Enable vie #deinfe GOAL_CLEAR
+    Enable vie #define GOAL_CLEAR

(This should obviously be "via" rather than "vie", even though vie is  
of course a legal English word.)

If you are going to undertake a project to fix spelling, please do it  
in a sane fashion that involves more than just the use of a  
spellchecker.

You have also committed a patch which creates a "TESTING" file for  
testing purposes; something of this nature should not be in a public  
repository that you expect other people to ever pull patches from.

I do not believe that this repo should be included in the repos list  
until useful patches are committed to it that have been signed off on  
by other active developers. I, myself, do not yet see any patches in  
this repo that meet that criterion.


From netrek at gmail.com  Sat Mar  8 00:30:31 2008
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2008 01:30:31 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] darcs patch: Testing remote repo (and 2 more)
In-Reply-To: <1EC89E4F-06A0-4AB2-AAD0-4A800A925BC5@karthik.com>
References: <E1JXoAM-00009x-Dz@tellurium.club.cc.cmu.edu>
	<1EC89E4F-06A0-4AB2-AAD0-4A800A925BC5@karthik.com>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0803072230x45c37d88scaea836416770816@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 11:36 PM, Karthik Arumugham <karthik at karthik.com> wrote:
>
>  You are aware that different parts of the world use different
>  spellings for certain English words such as recognize/recognise,
>  factorize/factorise, etc, of which you have "fixed" quite a few
>  occurrences, correct?

Yes, I was just going by what ispell flagged.

>  Please back out your patch and re-record it without such changes. I do

I don't know how to undo a patch in darcs. If I do darcs delete it
will delete my changes and then I'd have to start over which would
have made all my time and effort for naught.

>  not believe that we should be forcing American English on non-American
>  developers.

Ok.

>  I also see occurrences of you having used ispell to correct legitimate
>  spelling errors, but then you have ignored other errors that are on
>  the exact same lines, causing me to wonder how closely you reviewed
>  the changes being made:
>  -    Enable vie #deinfe GOAL_CLEAR
>  +    Enable vie #define GOAL_CLEAR
>
>  (This should obviously be "via" rather than "vie", even though vie is
>  of course a legal English word.)

That's because ispell did not flag "vie" since it's a legitamate word.
I didn't claim this was a perfect 100% comprehensive spellcheck. As
the patch comment says it is a spellcheck using solely ispell in
emacs.

>  If you are going to undertake a project to fix spelling, please do it
>  in a sane fashion that involves more than just the use of a
>  spellchecker.

I spent several hours trying to fix obvious spelling errors with
ispell. I have no desire to spend anymore time trying to find every
single spelling error since it would require too much time for too
little gain in my view. No one else spent anytime doing spellchecking
fixes for the past N years so I thought me taking a few hours out of
my own time to do it would have been appreciated by the developers.

>  You have also committed a patch which creates a "TESTING" file for
>  testing purposes; something of this nature should not be in a public
>  repository that you expect other people to ever pull patches from.

Sorry I missed that.

Zach


From netrek at gmail.com  Sat Mar  8 01:12:12 2008
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2008 02:12:12 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] darcs patch: Testing remote repo (and 2 more)
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0803072230x45c37d88scaea836416770816@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E1JXoAM-00009x-Dz@tellurium.club.cc.cmu.edu>
	<1EC89E4F-06A0-4AB2-AAD0-4A800A925BC5@karthik.com>
	<ecfa260c0803072230x45c37d88scaea836416770816@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0803072312gfc49884qfc81aadcebb77c20@mail.gmail.com>

I have unrecorded the problematic patches, fixed them and recorded the
new patches. Please note, an exhaustive rigorous spellcheck would
entail visually inspecting every single line of every file since there
may be legitimate words that were not intended by the author yet pass
the spell check, there are other problems which only visual inspection
would catch as well. This spellchecking process meets, in my view, a
reasonable level of due diligence.

Zach


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Sat Mar  8 02:26:28 2008
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2008 19:26:28 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] fyi: repo online
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0803072008t2f283f9chb26337c160c37765@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ecfa260c0803071933m13722b1fpf155cc237b53d0fb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080308035105.GC21679@mail.beanhq.com>
	<ecfa260c0803072008t2f283f9chb26337c160c37765@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080308082628.GA4594@us.netrek.org>

On Fri, Mar 07, 2008 at 11:08:19PM -0500, Zach wrote:
> Sorry was following the procedure in the docs.

Perhaps you misread the docs, as it isn't explicitly stated, you had to
use your future-prediction ... or, to put it another way, the docs are
incomplete, they use OR where perhaps they should use XOR.  I've just
checked this.  File STYLE section "Darcs - Sending Patches", point one,
says:

> 1.  if code is your own work, distribute it as a darcs patch, either
> using "darcs send", "darcs send --output=somefile.dpatch" or by
> publishing it on a repository accessible via HTTP.

It doesn't say AND.  It says OR.  Doing all three adds redundancy.

Making your repo HTTP accessible is good, but you have to let the other
developers know about it, and then you have to check to see if your
patches have been taken.  It is best suited for regular trusted
contributors.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Sat Mar  8 04:54:11 2008
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2008 21:54:11 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] darcs patch: Testing remote repo (and 2 more)
In-Reply-To: <E1JXoAM-00009x-Dz@tellurium.club.cc.cmu.edu>
References: <E1JXoAM-00009x-Dz@tellurium.club.cc.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <20080308105411.GA11432@us.netrek.org>

G'day Zach,

Thanks for the patch, I've done some more work on it:

- surely it is spelled synchronization,
- there is such a thing as a gantt chart,
- removed a few apparently unintended changes.

Let me know if this is ready to apply.

Signed-off-by: James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org>

Sat Mar  8 18:04:14 EST 2008  netrek at gmail.com
  * spellchecking
  Performed a cursory spellcheck using the ispell library in GNU Emacs.
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/BUGS new-netrek-server/Vanilla/BUGS
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/BUGS	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/BUGS	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
@@ -10,13 +10,13 @@
 	- robots are not recognising Cas, reported by KaraokeBar, Australia,
 	  2007-05-15
 
-	- Twarping to base docked on base can occassionally cause a
+	- Twarping to base docked on base can occasionally cause a
           glitch where both bases head warp 60 off the galaxy map.
 
 	- Triple mode blanks planet names, if server vote to dogfight
 	  or hockey, names are not restored.
 
-	- With surrenderstart=1, occassionally see "The 0 0 20 minutes before
+	- With surrenderstart=1, occasionally see "The 0 0 20 minutes before
 	  empire collapses" messages upon neuting a planet.
 
 	- Sturgeon bug: problem with torp or plasma array in which a
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/CHANGES new-netrek-server/Vanilla/CHANGES
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/CHANGES	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/CHANGES	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
@@ -2,7 +2,7 @@
 
 pl3 - pl4 : Tue Jul 13 15:42:29 PDT 1993
 
-	Fixed daemon and gcc problem with writeable strings. - Mark Levine.
+	Fixed daemon and gcc problem with writable strings. - Mark Levine.
 	Many many SYSV changes and mods for sequent machines - Kurt Siegl.
 	rsa-server.c added to the standard distribution.    - Nick Trown
 
@@ -31,7 +31,7 @@
 	  don't cost as much, assault's torpcost doesn't
 	  cost as much, higher wpntemp for SBs)		    - Nick Trown / jmn
 	Now supports Linux.				    - Kurt Siegl.
-	Added Daemon Sychronization.			    - Tedd Hadley / NBT
+	Added Daemon Synchronization.			    - Tedd Hadley / NBT
 pl8 - 2.01pl0 : Wed Aug 18 21:54:34 PDT 1993
 	More fixes for robots when all players leave the
 	   game 					   - Mark Levine.
@@ -147,7 +147,7 @@
 	Vector torps from Calvin			   - Sheldon
 	Fixed wander code				   - Sheldon
 	Added code to redefine ship stats from .sysdef	   - Sheldon
-	SB contruction time is not reset out of tmode	   - Habig
+	SB construction time is not reset out of tmode	   - Habig
 	Puck, Mars, and pickup use new command interface   - nbt
 	Fixed .bypass.					   - Habig
 	Added more functionality to scores tool.	   - Habig
@@ -205,7 +205,7 @@
 	Fix SB updates after it dies.			   - Habig
 2.5pl3 - 2.5pl4:
 	Added ship info packets for different ship stats   - Habig
-	Made changes to creditting system		   - Habig
+	Made changes to crediting system		   - Habig
 	Improved voting					   - Kantner
 	Improved robots (commands, functionality)	   - Siegl
 	Improved INL robot commands			   - Siegl
@@ -587,7 +587,7 @@
 
 	Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:04:21 +1000
 	From: James Cameron <cameron at stl.dec.com>
-	Subject: [VANILLA-L:847] Overheat state propogated to refitted ships
+	Subject: [VANILLA-L:847] Overheat state propagated to refitted ships
 
 	(2.8pl0 released 23-Apr-1998)
 
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/INSTALL new-netrek-server/Vanilla/INSTALL
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/INSTALL	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/INSTALL	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
@@ -41,7 +41,7 @@
 These are config.h and system.mk.  
 
 (If you intend to do any development work, consider typing at this stage "make
-depend".  This will add file dependencies to the Makefiles to optimise
+depend".  This will add file dependencies to the Makefiles to optimize
 recompilation.  However, please "make rmdependencies" before submitting patches
 or changes back to CVS.)
 
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/NEWS new-netrek-server/Vanilla/NEWS
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/NEWS	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/NEWS	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
@@ -14,9 +14,9 @@
   * pret, repair/refuel slots on switch to real t-mode
   * pret, fixed "1 armies" issue
   * pret, bot name fixes
-  * Fix confine after a draft has occured
+  * Fix confine after a draft has occurred
   * review LTD_STATS conversion procedure
-  * pet peeve, fix all occurences of "1 minutes"
+  * pet peeve, fix all occurrences of "1 minutes"
   * add ignoring/ignoredby commands
   * util.h - missing function declaration
   * util.c - add find_slot_by_ip function
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/PROJECTS new-netrek-server/Vanilla/PROJECTS
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/PROJECTS	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/PROJECTS	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
@@ -44,7 +44,7 @@
 
 	  SCAN_FRIENDLY ... if 1 sends information about enemy ships,
 	  according to war, peace, hostility settings.  Expected to be
-	  turned on by illumunated server administrators.  Default on.
+	  turned on by illuminated server administrators.  Default on.
 
 	  SCAN_HOSTILE ... if 1 sends information about enemy ships,
 	  according to war, peace, hostility settings.  Default on.
@@ -64,7 +64,7 @@
 
 	- scenario game, entire galaxy starts off as neutral, every
           player starts with 1 kill and 2 armies.  Most planets after
-          20 minutes wins.  Option only 5 lives.  Option respwan
+          20 minutes wins.  Option only 5 lives.  Option respawn
           positioning would be interesting to balance. [credit Jerub
           on #netrek]
 
@@ -242,7 +242,7 @@
           overloading a variable.  Example states could be PTPLAYER,
           PTOBSERVER, PTROBOT and PTPRACTICE.  Whenever a slot changes
           modes, save the slot (if appropriate) and re-read stats from
-          .players anew as if a fresh login occured but without the
+          .players anew as if a fresh login occurred but without the
           slot assignment (which would require a client upgrade).
 
           Cleaning up the observer code is a prerequisite for
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/README.developers new-netrek-server/Vanilla/README.developers
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/README.developers	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/README.developers	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
@@ -124,7 +124,7 @@
     keycomp/defs.h
 
 	Same as ntserv/defs.h, but SURREND=5 instead of 4?  Should be
-	link to ntserv instead?  What is kecomp/ used for?
+	link to ntserv instead?  What is keycomp/ used for?
 
     getship.c
 
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/README.releasing new-netrek-server/Vanilla/README.releasing
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/README.releasing	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/README.releasing	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
@@ -164,6 +164,6 @@
 I have a template I use, so I'll notify BXA before each Vanilla release
 I put on the ftp site.  You should probably add a notice to each Vanilla
 release announcement with something like "This package contains
-cryptoghic software.  Please be aware of the laws governing your country
-regarding the use of crytography."
+cryptographic software.  Please be aware of the laws governing your country
+regarding the use of cryptography."
 
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/REPOSITORIES new-netrek-server/Vanilla/REPOSITORIES
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/REPOSITORIES	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/REPOSITORIES	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
@@ -8,6 +8,7 @@
 http://www.ninjatronics.com/darcs/netrek-server/        William U. Clark
 http://www.gerdesas.com/netrek/netrek-server/           John R. Dennison
 http://dotman.gerdesas.com/netrek/netrek-server/        Rich Hansen
+http://www.club.cc.cmu.edu/~chaos/netrek-server/        Zachary Uram
 
 project
 
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/STYLE new-netrek-server/Vanilla/STYLE
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/STYLE	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/STYLE	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
@@ -1,18 +1,9 @@
 Coding Style
 ------------
 
-1.  for minor changes, do not change indentation, keep it consistent
-    with the indentation in the file you are working on,
-
-2.  for major changes to a file, reindent the file according to 4
-    below,
-
-3.  for new files, indent the file according to 4 below,
-
-4.  indent by either two or four spaces, or use tabs, but be
-    consistent within a file, preferred is four spaces, no tabs.
-
-An example
+1.  indent by either two or four spaces, or use tabs, but be
+    consistent within a file, preferred is four spaces, no tabs, for
+    example:
 
 static int foo(int a)
 {
@@ -25,6 +16,11 @@
     }
 }
 
+2.  for minor changes, do not change indentation, keep it consistent
+    with the indentation in the file you are working on,
+
+3.  for major changes to a file, indent the file entirely.
+
 
 Darcs - Sending Patches
 -----------------------
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/CREDITS new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/CREDITS
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/CREDITS	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/CREDITS	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
@@ -3,8 +3,8 @@
 there help with the code.
 
     Mark Levine     - 	For his work on the new getentry code.
-    Kurt Siegl      -   For his work on Linux port, SYSV dependenices, and
-			  the config.h format which elminates much of the
+    Kurt Siegl      -   For his work on Linux port, SYSV dependencies, and
+			  the config.h format which eliminates much of the
 			  ugliness of all the defines in the code. Oh, and
 			  also for pointing out all the stupid things I do. :)
     Micheal Kantner -  For finding all the small things that I overlook while
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/CUSTOMIZATION new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/CUSTOMIZATION
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/CUSTOMIZATION	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/CUSTOMIZATION	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
@@ -1,5 +1,5 @@
 
-	Here is a more in-depth explaination into some of the features
+	Here is a more in-depth explanation into some of the features
 that can change the server. 
 
 1) config/config.h defines :
@@ -24,19 +24,19 @@
 
 	NEED_EXIT - Some systems need exit to be defined in socket.c
 
-	NO_PLANET_PLAGUE - Don't allow planet plagueing. Don't use this with
+	NO_PLANET_PLAGUE - Don't allow planet plaguing. Don't use this with
 		ERIKPLAGUE.
 
 	PING - Allow ping stats support. This may increase the network load a
 		little.
 
-	RSA - Use RSA verification. Some method of verification is recommeneded.
+	RSA - Use RSA verification. Some method of verification is recommended.
 		RSA is the most accepted method now.
 
 	SHOW_RSA - Display some messages like failed RSA verification message
 		and type of client on entry of player.
 
-	RESETGALAXY - Everytime a conquer occurs reset the galaxy.
+	RESETGALAXY - Every time a conquer occurs reset the galaxy.
 
 	SELF_RESET - galaxy will reset if daemon dies.
 
@@ -65,7 +65,7 @@
 	NEWMASK - Use a newer tournament mask function that is less rigid
 		than older version. Doesn't take preferences into account.
 
-	RCD - Support Reciever variable distresses. (Saves on a lot of network
+	RCD - Support Receiver variable distresses. (Saves on a lot of network
 		traffic).
 
 	FLAT_BONUS - 5x bonus for killing last army on a planet 
@@ -93,7 +93,7 @@
 			  is always in slot g.
 
 	SB_RAPID_COOLDOWN	- allows for twice the normal rate of weapon
-				  cooldown; useful on base-practice.
+				  cool down; useful on base-practice.
 
 	ALLOW_PRACTICE_ROBOT_SB	- allows practice robots to be refit into
 				  starbases if defined.
@@ -181,7 +181,7 @@
 
 	TOPGUN - (0 or 1) Misc things to make playing harder and only clueful
 		players may like..  Mutually exclusive with all other non-
-		tandard server modes.
+		standard server modes.
 
 	PRET - (0 or 1) Enable pre-t entertainment mode.  Mutually exclusive
 		with all other non-standard server modes.
@@ -229,7 +229,7 @@
 		the absence of ping responses from a client.
 
    	PING_GHOSTBUST_INTERVAL - ( >0) based on PING_GHOSTBUST and PING_FREQ,
-		the number of unaswered pings before ghostbusting a player.
+		the number of unanswered pings before ghostbusting a player.
 
         GHOSTBUST_TIMER - ( >0 ) Timer setting to ghostbust a client using the
                 normal ghostbust routines.
@@ -273,7 +273,7 @@
 				(not implemented yet..).
 
 	In addition ship characteristics can be changed. The list of
-	charactistics that can be changed are:         
+	characteristics that can be changed are:         
           TURNS, ACCS, TORPDAMAGE, PHASERDAMAGE, PHASERFUSE, PLASMADAMAGE, 
           TORPSPEED, TORPFUSE, TORPTURNS, PLASMASPEED, PLASMAFUSE, PLAMSATURNS, 
           MAXSPEED, REPAIR, MAXFUEL, TORPCOST, PLASMACOST, PHASERCOST, 
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/DEBUG.HELP new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/DEBUG.HELP
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/DEBUG.HELP	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/DEBUG.HELP	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
@@ -1,5 +1,5 @@
 
-Common messsages and what to do:
+Common messages and what to do:
 
 I get "server not listening" from the client
 
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/DEVNOTES.SHORT new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/DEVNOTES.SHORT
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/DEVNOTES.SHORT	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/DEVNOTES.SHORT	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
@@ -8,7 +8,7 @@
 
 PS: This is a beta release.
     2 things are missing.
-PLAYER, WARNING,TORP amd message is working... Test it out.
+PLAYER, WARNING,TORP and message is working... Test it out.
 
 Happy Easter Break!
 
@@ -36,11 +36,11 @@
 
 16.04.93:
 ntserv/socket.c	rewrote updateMessages. ( Was really to clumsy.)	
-		LOGPACKETS loggs size only if in SHORT mode.
+		LOGPACKETS logs size only if in SHORT mode.
 		updateforce changed: plasmatorps are now handled like
 		normal torpinfo.
 		[ Sidenote about my implementation: I think i have some good 
-		ideas, but the overrall implementation is not really shining. 
+		ideas, but the overall implementation is not really shining. 
 		My programming skills are not so good....]
 
 client/socket.c	changed the code a bit .look at the diffs.
@@ -96,7 +96,7 @@
 23.04.93  cleaned up the code, updateSmall ('-') is working.
 	  changed newplanet Routine to Berkley style redraw.
 
-	  Can someome implement a second key for UpdateSmall+?
+	  Can someone implement a second key for UpdateSmall+?
           ( Do not know which key to choose.)
 	  And a different menu for the short code. ( Because ',' is for
 	  the pingwindow. And i think the SHORT switch should go into the
@@ -105,7 +105,7 @@
 	  test it . The best to test the new system would be a inl server.
   	  Then you can do a limited release of the client and play some 
 	  scrimmages with the new code. Where can i find the latest *stable*
- 	  INL sourcen? 
+ 	  INL sources? 
 
 	Bye
 		Heiko Wengler
@@ -114,7 +114,7 @@
 
 		Heiko Wengler
  
-29.04.93	removed a TFREE bug. (introduced by simply copying sourcecode
+29.04.93	removed a TFREE bug. (introduced by simply copying source code
 		without changing one line of code.)
 
 		H.W.
@@ -148,7 +148,7 @@
 
 			HW
 
-21.05.93	Cleaned the tools up. Added in every pmesage() function
+21.05.93	Cleaned the tools up. Added in every pmessage() function
 		an DINVALID flag. 
 		Implemented threshold idea. compile in with
 		-DSHORT_THRESHOLD. Not defined because server is sluggy
@@ -164,19 +164,19 @@
 
 9.06.93		Client/server fix from Tedd Hadley (Torps.)
 
-26.06.93	SP_S_YOU_SS is now sended with UDP.
+26.06.93	SP_S_YOU_SS is now sent with UDP.
 		( Hadley.)
 
-26.06.93	SP_S_YOU_SS is now sended with UDP.
+26.06.93	SP_S_YOU_SS is now sent with UDP.
 		( Hadley.)
 
-26.06.93	SP_S_YOU_SS is now sended with UDP.
+26.06.93	SP_S_YOU_SS is now sent with UDP.
 		( Hadley.)
 
-26.06.93	SP_S_YOU_SS is now sended with UDP.
+26.06.93	SP_S_YOU_SS is now sent with UDP.
 		( Hadley.)
 
-26.06.93	SP_S_YOU_SS is now sended with UDP.
+26.06.93	SP_S_YOU_SS is now sent with UDP.
 		( Hadley.)
 
 9.06.93		Client/server fix from Tedd Hadley (Torps.)
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/DS new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/DS
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/DS	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/DS	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
@@ -9,7 +9,7 @@
       the daemon completes move().  Likewise, there's no way to predict how
       many ntserv processes are active simultaneously.
 
-      With daemon synchronization, the daemon signals the ntserv proceses
+      With daemon synchronization, the daemon signals the ntserv process
       when it completes move().  This helps guarantee that the ntserv
       processes are updating the client only after the daemon is finished
       with that cycle and ensures that the clients get the most recent
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/INSTALL.NOTES new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/INSTALL.NOTES
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/INSTALL.NOTES	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/INSTALL.NOTES	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
@@ -6,7 +6,7 @@
 
 The steps are really as easy as the following:
 1)  Ftp everything you need (server, res-rsa, xsg)
-2)  decrypt (rsa-only) and uncompress/gunzip everthing.
+2)  decrypt (rsa-only) and uncompress/gunzip everything.
 3)  Make two directories (you probably already have one of them)
      netrekroot   (you probably have this one)
      netrekroot/serverdir
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.LTD new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.LTD
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.LTD	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.LTD	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
@@ -322,7 +322,7 @@
 	
 (osba) [ogged sb armies]
 	Number of armies on board an enemy SB you ogged.  This stat
-	is updated seperately from (oat), armies you ogged on other
+	is updated separately from (oat), armies you ogged on other
 	ships.
 
 (ofc)  [ogged friendly carrier]
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.SHORT new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.SHORT
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.SHORT	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.SHORT	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
@@ -15,7 +15,7 @@
 Date: 24 May 1993 14:49:13 GMT
 
 Hello!	Here is the Readme to SHORT_PACKETS.  You need a new client and
-the server must have SHORT_PACKETS to play withit.  The actual client
+the server must have SHORT_PACKETS to play with it.  The actual client
 informations how you can switch SHORT_PACKETS on could be wrong.
 
 Short Packets Code by Tedd Hadley and Heiko Wengler.
@@ -41,7 +41,7 @@
 threshold is specified the server tries to not overload the connection.
 This option could be not implemented in the server.  You should give as
 a threshold the number of bytes per second you wanna give from your
-bandwith.  For example if you set the threshold to 500 bytes. And you
+bandwidth.  For example if you set the threshold to 500 bytes. And you
 are playing with 5 updates/sec. You have a threshold of 500/updates =
 100bytes/update. The server checks after every update if he wrote more
 than the limit. If yes the server skips your next update and you get a
@@ -50,16 +50,16 @@
 Minimum limit per update is 60 bytes. (Threshold = 60 * updates then.)
 If you set it to 0 Server ends testing.
 
-If you wanna calculate your bandwith requirements you should count the
+If you wanna calculate your bandwidth requirements you should count the
 tcp/ip overhead of 64 bytes to the actual data.	 For example if you
-wanna play with a 9600 Baud modem.  You have a bandwith of 1200 bytes.
+wanna play with a 9600 Baud modem.  You have a bandwidth of 1200 bytes.
 you can subtract 200 bytes for client-server communication.  So you have
 1000 bytes to play with.  With 5 updates you need under tcp/ip
-(5*64=)320 bytes for headers.  You have then ~650 bytes for serverdata.
+(5*64=)320 bytes for headers.  You have then ~650 bytes for server data.
 That means you should set the threshold to 650 bytes. (130 bytes per
-update are much.  All playermovement(16 players) + SP_S_YOU + 16 Torps).
+update are much.  All player movement(16 players) + SP_S_YOU + 16 Torps).
 I do not think that you ever get 16 player packets in one update.  That
-leaves you with some more "weaponsdata" :-).  If you have another
+leaves you with some more "weapons data" :-).  If you have another
 protocol you must compute the overhead by yourself.  And any limit
 smaller than 500 bytes/update means that after an UpdateAll the next
 update is skipped.
@@ -142,11 +142,11 @@
 SP_S_TORP:
 byte	range
 -----------------------
-0	0-7 Packettype
+0	0-7 Packet type
 1	0-7 Bitset describing which torps are in this packet.
 2	0-7 Torpnumber of first torp( num*8=torpnumber)
 3	A number of 9 Bit pairs. Each describing one torp.
-	(The 9 bit numbers are the torpcoordinates in pixel-coordinates.)
+	(The 9 bit numbers are the torp coordinates in pixel-coordinates.)
 	All rounded up to 4 byte boundaries.
 
 SP_S_YOU and SP_S_YOU_SS are the result of dividing SP_YOU into two
@@ -273,7 +273,7 @@
 torp.c		changed all warnings.
 smessage.c	added DINVALID flag to pmessage
 		and pmessage2.
-warning.c	implemented short message sendings 
+warning.c	implemented short message sending 
 		of warnings.
 daemonII.c	implemented SHORT_DAEMON messages.
 		( Killmess, Planetmessages.)
@@ -290,7 +290,7 @@
 
 Client:	socket.c , data.c 
 
--- All coordinates are in the clientcoordinatesystem. (0-499 = 9 Bits)
+-- All coordinates are in the client coordinate system. (0-499 = 9 Bits)
 -- UpdateAll: The client resets all weapon info by himself.
 	      The server sends only active weapons data.
 	      ( torps that fly around or a player phasers you.)
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.basep new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.basep
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.basep	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.basep	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
@@ -3,7 +3,7 @@
 	The server has the base practice code compiled into it. However,
 to use it you will have to have the robots that aren't included in this
 code. You will have to get them from Tedd Hadley (hadley at uci.edu). Please
-don't bother him unless you are serious about setting up a base pratice
+don't bother him unless you are serious about setting up a base practice
 server.
 
 Setting up BASE PRACTICE
@@ -13,7 +13,7 @@
    Since the robot source code is quite a mess, I'll usually send a binary
    on request (email hadley at uci.edu)
   
-   A few robot binaries are also loacted at 
+   A few robot binaries are also located at 
 	ftp://ftp.risc.uni-linz.ac.at/pub/netrek/bin.misc/
     
 config.h:
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.keycomp new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.keycomp
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.keycomp	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.keycomp	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
@@ -1,7 +1,7 @@
 
 rsa_keycap 	-- sample key descriptions file.  Each key entry contains these
 		   fields:
-   key name : a unique key indentifier currently constructed by concatenating
+   key name : a unique key identifier currently constructed by concatenating
 	      abbreviations for client type , author, and binary architecture.
    client type : (ct=) a string identifying the client type 
    creator  : (cr=) the email address of the author or person who compiled
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.mars new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.mars
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.mars	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.mars	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
@@ -3,7 +3,7 @@
 
 
 	The mars robot overseers the players when run. It puts the server into
-dog-fighting mode and handles all tournament activites. To end the tourney
+dog-fighting mode and handles all tournament activities. To end the tourney
 mode simply kill the mars robot and the server will revert to normal execution.
 
 	This is a first release of the mars robot so a few bugs are expected.
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.motd new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.motd
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.motd	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.motd	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
@@ -1,6 +1,6 @@
 FILES
    
-   convert.c		-- simple translator for 60x10 graphics charcters
+   convert.c		-- simple translator for 60x10 graphics characters
    motd_logo.MASTER	-- logo (design yourself -- sample UCI logo given)
    motd_local.MASTER	-- server-specific motd
    top50		-- show top 50 scores by rank and hours.
@@ -12,7 +12,7 @@
    Since they are difficult to enter with a standard text editor, the 'convert'
    program is provided which translates special characters to the corresponding
    graphics character.  A description of the special characters follows.  
-   Special characters can be escaped by preceeding with '\'.
+   Special characters can be escaped by preceding with '\'.
 
     -           -- horizontal bar
     _           -- lower horizontal bar
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.newbie new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.newbie
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.newbie	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.newbie	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
@@ -28,7 +28,7 @@
 server keeps running via MIN_NUM_PLAYERS.
 
 If the gethostname() call in newbie.c returns the wrong thing then
-define TREKSERVER to something appropiate.  Shouldn't be necessary
+define TREKSERVER to something appropriate.  Shouldn't be necessary
 unless you are multihoming.
 
 robotd/robot.c:
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.puck new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.puck
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.puck	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.puck	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
@@ -71,7 +71,7 @@
 
 3)  Offsides code:  It has been started and is fully functional,
     but not much fun to play with.  It will be improved in future
-    releases.  I do NOT recommentd using it.
+    releases.  I do NOT recommend using it.
     Enable via #define OFFSIDE
 
 4)  Player Eject by voting:  Works great but is a potential
@@ -84,7 +84,7 @@
     last about 8 minutes longer.
     Disable via #define SHORT_GAME (i.e clock always ticks)
 
-6)  Loquaciouns Announcer:  Announces each time puck possession changes.
+6)  Loquacious Announcer:  Announces each time puck possession changes.
     Enable via #define ANNOUNCER
 
 7)  Restructured the control flow of the game.  Is now in a more
@@ -106,9 +106,9 @@
     speed.  i.e.  Fly warp 12 into the side, you still use warp 12
     fuel and change angle at the warp 12 rate.  These are #IFDEF's
     Enable via #define WALL_BOUNCE
-    Enable vie #deinfe GOAL_CLEAR
+    Enable via #define GOAL_CLEAR
 
-    Known feature:  if orbitting a goal planet, you can enter
+    Known feature:  if orbiting a goal planet, you can enter
     the goal area.  If you want into the goal, you must go slow...
 
 2)  Sitout code:  send "sitout" to puck, and you are teleported out
@@ -166,7 +166,7 @@
     planets are immediately at 2 armies and slots are held.  More of
     a technicality than anything else.
 
-8)  some other cosmetic changes probably occured, and they should be
+8)  some other cosmetic changes probably occurred, and they should be
     documented in the code.
 
 I tried to credit everyone with their contributions whenever possible.
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.scores new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.scores
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.scores	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.scores	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
@@ -75,7 +75,7 @@
 	INL->ALL  SCORE: FED is winning by planet count [tie break]
 
 Each score is followed by the winning team under that scoring system.
-Here, FED is winning by planet count.  Continous score is tied.  If
+Here, FED is winning by planet count.  Continuous score is tied.  If
 the game were to end immediately, FED would win by the planet count
 tie breaker.  Please see the WINNING CONDITIONS section below on how
 to interpret these messages.
@@ -147,7 +147,7 @@
 	Continuous    WIN          loss       Game goes to EXTRA TIME.
 	Planets       loss         WIN
 
-	In the first EXTRA TIME mode, all ships are oblierated like
+	In the first EXTRA TIME mode, all ships are obliterated like
 	sudden death OT.  Exactly 5 minutes are added, and game play
 	resumes.  At the end of 5 minutes, the above rules are used to
 	determine the winner. If the game is tied by rule 5, then an
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.update new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.update
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.update	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/README.update	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
@@ -14,7 +14,7 @@
 		3. It gets the list and then forks and execs rsa_keycomp with
 		   the -c option to make the new .reserved and report on any
 		   new keys produced. Note: You can still use the exclude
-		   files and such described in the keycomp README. The ouput
+		   files and such described in the keycomp README. The output
 		   for the daemon/rsa_keycomp will be appended to what you
 		   made ERROR_FILE in defs.h in ntserv.
 
@@ -22,7 +22,7 @@
 		   motd_logo.MASTER, append the key list, and then the other
 		   info on the end (motd_local.MASTER). Then it will make a
 		   new best players list and put this on the end.  Note: The
-		   files motd_logo.MASTER, and lotd_local.MASTER are converted
+		   files motd_logo.MASTER, and motd_local.MASTER are converted
 		   from ascii to 6x10 font which has more characters. Look at
 		   README.motd for a description of these.
 
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/RSS new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/RSS
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/RSS	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/RSS	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
@@ -83,7 +83,7 @@
     int  p_pkls_c_s;           /* packet loss (client to server) */
     int  p_pkls_s_c;           /* packet loss (server to client) */
 	not yet done
-- racial, wins and losses by race, (coqn, geno, surr, base),
+- racial, wins and losses by race, (conq, geno, surr, base),
 	ok
 - t-mode, session begin, session end with struct status values,
 	gantt chart showing players who were there, icons per pick/take/death
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/XSG.doc new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/XSG.doc
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/XSG.doc	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/XSG.doc	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
@@ -91,7 +91,7 @@
  O		Options menu
  Q		Quit
  V		Rotate bitmap display of local planets
- B		Rotate bitmap dispaly of galactic planets
+ B		Rotate bitmap display of galactic planets
  l		Lock on to player/planet (also button 1)
  S		Show status window of a previously selected player
  w		Show war window of a previously selected player
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/logging.doc new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/logging.doc
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/logging.doc	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/logging.doc	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
@@ -9,15 +9,15 @@
 CONFIG OPTIONS
 
    logall=<1/0>			log all player generated messages
-   loggod=<1/0>			log messages to GOD, or preceeded by GOD:
+   loggod=<1/0>			log messages to GOD, or preceded by GOD:
 
 DESCRIPTION
    
    If logall is set, all messages sent by players are logged.
    This option must be set before the daemon is started.  The daemon
-   starts a seperate program ('logmes') if this option is given.
+   starts a separate program ('logmes') if this option is given.
 
-   If loggod is set, only messages preceeded by "GOD:" ("god:") are logged.
+   If loggod is set, only messages preceded by "GOD:" ("god:") are logged.
 
    The log files store each message in the following format:
 
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/multicast-server-discovery new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/multicast-server-discovery
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/multicast-server-discovery	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/multicast-server-discovery	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
@@ -130,7 +130,7 @@
 test query program.
 
 See parsemeta.c in the client source for additional details on making
-the query and procesisng the responses.
+the query and processing the responses.
 
 
 Verification
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/players-file-redesign.txt new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/players-file-redesign.txt
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/players-file-redesign.txt	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/players-file-redesign.txt	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
@@ -57,25 +57,25 @@
 	prefixes the string with LIBDIR
 pledit/main.c
 	passes name to edit_file()
-	(would be superceded by sql database access)
+	(would be superseded by sql database access)
 tools/html.c
 	sequential read of whole file
-	(would be superceded by sql database access)
+	(would be superseded by sql database access)
 tools/ltd_dump.c
 	multiple sequential reads of whole file
 tools/mergescores.c
 	erase current file and write a batch of records to a new file
-	(would be superceded by sql database access)
+	(would be superseded by sql database access)
 tools/newscores.c
 	erase current file and write a batch of records to a new file
-	(would be superceded by sql database access)
+	(would be superseded by sql database access)
 tools/ntpasswd.c
 	find record and update
 tools/scores.c
 	sequential read of whole file
 tools/text.c
 	sequential read of whole file
-	(would be superceded by sql database access)
+	(would be superseded by sql database access)
 tools/trimscores.c
 	erase current file and write a batch of records to a new file
 tools/update.c
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/players.CHANGES_bronco_old new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/players.CHANGES_bronco_old
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/players.CHANGES_bronco_old	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/players.CHANGES_bronco_old	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
@@ -88,7 +88,7 @@
 * UDP.  UDP v1.0 installed.
 
 * Session statistic query.  Sending yourself (or any other single
-player) a '?' produces a session statisitc query, listing the t-mode
+player) a '?' produces a session statistic query, listing the t-mode
 planets/armies/wins/losses and corresponding ratings and ratio for the
 current session.
 
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/sample_sysdef.in new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/sample_sysdef.in
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/sample_sysdef.in	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/sample_sysdef.in	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
@@ -122,7 +122,7 @@
 #	Reference: ntserv/daemonII.c check_scummers)
 CHECKSCUM=3
 #
-#	Do full reverse/forward lookup on IP addreses to check for matching
+#	Do full reverse/forward lookup on IP addresses to check for matching
 #	DNS entries, and make mismatches show in a 'WHOIS'/'@' (0 = no, 1 = yes)
 IP_CHECK_DNS=1
 #
@@ -352,7 +352,7 @@
 #	+ humans) that is maintained at all times.  If there are less humans
 #	than this number, the rest of the slots will be filled with robots
 #	until this number of slots is reached.  If there are an equal number
-#	or more huamans than this number, there will be no robots in game.
+#	or more humans than this number, there will be no robots in game.
 MIN_NEWBIE_SLOTS=12
 #
 #       Maximum number of newbie server players to allow at once
@@ -375,7 +375,7 @@
 #    Save t-mode galaxy during transition from t-mode to pre-t mode
 PRET_SAVE_GALAXY=1
 #
-#    Number of seconds the saved t-mode galaxy is elegible to be restored
+#    Number of seconds the saved t-mode galaxy is eligible to be restored
 #    if t-mode starts up again.
 PRET_GALAXY_LIFETIME=600
 #
diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/tools.doc new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/tools.doc
--- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/tools.doc	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
+++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/docs/tools.doc	2008-03-08 21:50:47.000000000 +1100
@@ -51,7 +51,7 @@
 Usage: mess
 
 Like message, only you can enter multi-line messages, which get sent in a
-batch (so you don't have to keep running "mesage" over and over).  Also allows
+batch (so you don't have to keep running "message" over and over).  Also allows
 multiple recipients (so you can send to "0123" instead of just "0").
 
 newscores
@@ -329,7 +329,7 @@
 
 MAXLOAD is the maximum load average allowed before the game shuts itself down.
 ** Under UTS, if MAXLOAD is set to "0.0", then the game will shut down.  No
-comparison with the actual load averge is performed.
+comparison with the actual load average is performed.
 
 CHAOS is a boolean flag; if TRUE, then "chaos mode" is turned on.  This has
 the following effects:

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From netrek at gmail.com  Sat Mar  8 20:04:07 2008
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 02:04:07 +0000
Subject: [netrek-dev] darcs patch: Testing remote repo (and 2 more)
In-Reply-To: <20080308105411.GA11432@us.netrek.org>
References: <E1JXoAM-00009x-Dz@tellurium.club.cc.cmu.edu>
	<20080308105411.GA11432@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0803081804p69aa5caan2fc8a1cbf4628bca@mail.gmail.com>

G'day James,

Looks good.

Zach

On Sat, Mar 8, 2008 at 10:54 AM, James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote:
> G'day Zach,
>
>  Thanks for the patch, I've done some more work on it:
>
>  - surely it is spelled synchronization,
>  - there is such a thing as a gantt chart,
>  - removed a few apparently unintended changes.
>
>  Let me know if this is ready to apply.


From msucka0xff at programmer.net  Sun Mar  9 08:07:40 2008
From: msucka0xff at programmer.net (. .)
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 05:07:40 -0800
Subject: [netrek-dev] darcs patch: Testing remote repo (and 2 more)
Message-ID: <20080309130740.00B4D1F50B1@ws1-2.us4.outblaze.com>

Good going Zach!

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Zach <netrek at gmail.com>
> To: "Netrek Development Mailing List" <netrek-dev at us.netrek.org>, "James Cameron" <quozl at us.netrek.org>
> Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] darcs patch: Testing remote repo (and 2 more)
> Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 02:04:07 +0000
> 
> 
> G'day James,
> 
> Looks good.
> 
> Zach
> 
> On Sat, Mar 8, 2008 at 10:54 AM, James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote:
> > G'day Zach,
> >
> >  Thanks for the patch, I've done some more work on it:
> >
> >  - surely it is spelled synchronization,
> >  - there is such a thing as a gantt chart,
> >  - removed a few apparently unintended changes.
> >
> >  Let me know if this is ready to apply.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> netrek-dev mailing list
> netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
> http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev

>


-- 
Want an e-mail address like mine?
Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com!



From ahn at orion.netrek.org  Wed Mar 12 20:56:28 2008
From: ahn at orion.netrek.org (Dave Ahn)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 21:56:28 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Goldberg Patent Re-exam granted
Message-ID: <20080313015628.GA15472@orion.netrek.org>

Folks,

News of interest: http://www.eff.org/press/archives/2008/03/12

The Goldberg patent claims will be re-examined by the USPTO.

Dave


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Wed Mar 19 21:13:33 2008
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 13:13:33 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] metaserver solicitation usage: drop/ update
	lost	servers
In-Reply-To: <20080305181422.GC16136@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20080224105559.GB22440@us.netrek.org>
	<20080224141842.GA13672@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20080224223517.GA5286@us.netrek.org>
	<20080225124012.GA16991@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20080225232315.GB4883@us.netrek.org>
	<20080226174713.GB14691@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20080226224645.GB4739@us.netrek.org>
	<20080227182403.GA29506@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20080228220527.GA8205@us.netrek.org>
	<20080305181422.GC16136@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20080320021333.GD11082@us.netrek.org>

Rado wrote:
> James wrote:
> > Rado wrote:
> > > Could you handle key-management (i.e. client approval) with the
> > > same efficiency, since it's basically about code control, given
> > > how well you're organized for code review?
> > 
> > No. It isn't about code control alone, the job would also require
> > running clients on various operating systems. I'm just not set up
> > for that.
> 
> Uh, why other platforms?
> Isn't it enough to see the "core" is OK and once it passed ask for
> others with access to required platforms to help out?
> Porting should not be as much a problem as understanding the meaning
> for code changes, which you can do well.

To do it right would need both code review, and checking that the binary
was built from the code, e.g. by building it again, and then running it.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From list2rado at gmx.de  Thu Mar 20 11:50:58 2008
From: list2rado at gmx.de (Rado S)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 17:50:58 +0100
Subject: [netrek-dev] code-management <-> key-management
Message-ID: <20080320165058.GA15386@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- James Cameron wrote on Thu 20.Mar'08 at 13:13:33 +1100 -=

> > > > Could you handle key-management (i.e. client approval) with
> > > > the same efficiency, since it's basically about code
> > > > control, given how well you're organized for code review?
> > > 
> > > No. It isn't about code control alone, the job would also
> > > require running clients on various operating systems. I'm just
> > > not set up for that.
> > 
> > Uh, why other platforms?
> > Isn't it enough to see the "core" is OK and once it passed ask
> > for others with access to required platforms to help out?
                                                    ^^^^^^^^
> To do it right would need both code review, and checking that the
> binary was built from the code, e.g. by building it again, and
> then running it.

What about a trusted community, supporter, servant?
Can't you trust anyone else besides you?
Why do you have to do all "the dirty work" by yourself?

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to  Thu Mar 20 23:02:48 2008
From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 00:02:48 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] code-management <-> key-management
In-Reply-To: <20080320165058.GA15386@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> (Rado S.'s
	message of "Thu, 20 Mar 2008 17:50:58 +0100")
References: <20080320165058.GA15386@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <0qlk4c4tcn.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>


Rado S <list2rado at gmx.de> writes:
> What about a trusted community, supporter, servant?
> Can't you trust anyone else besides you?
> Why do you have to do all "the dirty work" by yourself?

I don't believe James has ever stated that he was the only
one who could do something. He does not, for example, build 
and bless the windows or mac clients. I've never seen anyone
offer to do much of the work James does. 



From list2rado at gmx.de  Fri Mar 21 05:46:06 2008
From: list2rado at gmx.de (Rado S)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 11:46:06 +0100
Subject: [netrek-dev] code-management <-> key-management
In-Reply-To: <0qlk4c4tcn.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
References: <20080320165058.GA15386@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<0qlk4c4tcn.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
Message-ID: <20080321104606.GA21617@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- Andrew K. Bressen wrote on Fri 21.Mar'08 at  0:02:48 -0400 -=

> Rado S <list2rado at gmx.de> writes:
> > What about a trusted community, supporter, servant?
> > Can't you trust anyone else besides you?
> > Why do you have to do all "the dirty work" by yourself?
> 
> I don't believe James has ever stated that he was the only
> one who could do something.

Thank you for dropping and ignoring the context of my statement and
therefore inappropriately countering something that wasn't even
claimed.

> He does not, for example, build and bless the windows or mac
> clients. I've never seen anyone offer to do much of the work James
> does.

Thank you for correctly pointing out that factually James is doing
most of the work which _is_ being done all by himself.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From list2rado at gmx.de  Fri Mar 21 05:46:06 2008
From: list2rado at gmx.de (Rado S)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 11:46:06 +0100
Subject: [netrek-dev] code-management <-> key-management
In-Reply-To: <0qlk4c4tcn.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
References: <20080320165058.GA15386@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<0qlk4c4tcn.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
Message-ID: <20080321104606.GA21617@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- Andrew K. Bressen wrote on Fri 21.Mar'08 at  0:02:48 -0400 -=

> Rado S <list2rado at gmx.de> writes:
> > What about a trusted community, supporter, servant?
> > Can't you trust anyone else besides you?
> > Why do you have to do all "the dirty work" by yourself?
> 
> I don't believe James has ever stated that he was the only
> one who could do something.

Thank you for dropping and ignoring the context of my statement and
therefore inappropriately countering something that wasn't even
claimed.

> He does not, for example, build and bless the windows or mac
> clients. I've never seen anyone offer to do much of the work James
> does.

Thank you for correctly pointing out that factually James is doing
most of the work which _is_ being done all by himself.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From cflrich at cfl.rr.com  Fri Mar 21 08:39:32 2008
From: cflrich at cfl.rr.com (cflrich at cfl.rr.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 9:39:32 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] code-management <-> key-management
Message-ID: <3948144.1548211206106772351.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web28-z02>

---- Rado S <list2rado at gmx.de> wrote: 
> What about a trusted community, supporter, servant?
> Can't you trust anyone else besides you?
> Why do you have to do all "the dirty work" by yourself?

> Thank you for correctly pointing out that factually James is doing
> most of the work which _is_ being done all by himself.
> 

So let me get this straight.  You agree that James is doing most of the work, by himself.  Then you're asking why he doesn't take on more work on top of that, and complaining that his reasons aren't valid?

Why don't you do it?

-rich


From cflrich at cfl.rr.com  Fri Mar 21 08:39:32 2008
From: cflrich at cfl.rr.com (cflrich at cfl.rr.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 9:39:32 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] code-management <-> key-management
Message-ID: <3948144.1548211206106772351.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web28-z02>

---- Rado S <list2rado at gmx.de> wrote: 
> What about a trusted community, supporter, servant?
> Can't you trust anyone else besides you?
> Why do you have to do all "the dirty work" by yourself?

> Thank you for correctly pointing out that factually James is doing
> most of the work which _is_ being done all by himself.
> 

So let me get this straight.  You agree that James is doing most of the work, by himself.  Then you're asking why he doesn't take on more work on top of that, and complaining that his reasons aren't valid?

Why don't you do it?

-rich


From list2rado at gmx.de  Fri Mar 21 09:27:50 2008
From: list2rado at gmx.de (Rado S)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 15:27:50 +0100
Subject: [netrek-dev] code-management <-> key-management
In-Reply-To: <3948144.1548211206106772351.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web28-z02>
References: <3948144.1548211206106772351.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web28-z02>
Message-ID: <20080321142750.GD21617@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- cflrich at cfl.rr.com wrote on Fri 21.Mar'08 at  9:39:32 -0400 -=

> ---- Rado S <list2rado at gmx.de> wrote: 
> > What about a trusted community, supporter, servant?
> > Can't you trust anyone else besides you?
> > Why do you have to do all "the dirty work" by yourself?
> 
> > Thank you for correctly pointing out that factually James is
> > doing most of the work which _is_ being done all by himself.
> 
> You agree that James is doing most of the work, by himself.

Correct.

> Then you're asking why he doesn't take on more work on top of
> that, and complaining that his reasons aren't valid?

You've fallen for the same mistake Andrew has commited: ignoring the
context. Putting both my statements on the same quoting level
doesn't help it really.

Besides, I'm not complaining, I'm asking or suggesting.

When you recall the context, you'll notice that he didn't decline
altogether, but explained that for the idea to work it were necessary 
"to do it all myself for all platforms".
To this I offered alternatives to his "lonesome hero" approach.

> Why don't you do it?

I can't do it all by myself either.
Therefore I suggested to share the workload.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From cflrich at cfl.rr.com  Fri Mar 21 09:35:27 2008
From: cflrich at cfl.rr.com (cflrich at cfl.rr.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 10:35:27 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] code-management <-> key-management
Message-ID: <18060994.1554491206110127755.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web28-z02>


>---- Rado S <list2rado at gmx.de> wrote: 
> >=- cflrich at cfl.rr.com wrote on Fri 21.Mar'08 at  9:39:32 -0400 -=
> > Why don't you do it?
> 
> I can't do it all by myself either.
> Therefore I suggested to share the workload.

Which portion, exactly, are you volunteering to do?

-rich



From list2rado at gmx.de  Fri Mar 21 11:16:16 2008
From: list2rado at gmx.de (Rado S)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 17:16:16 +0100
Subject: [netrek-dev] code-management <-> key-management
In-Reply-To: <18060994.1554491206110127755.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web28-z02>
References: <18060994.1554491206110127755.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web28-z02>
Message-ID: <20080321161616.GF21617@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- cflrich at cfl.rr.com wrote on Fri 21.Mar'08 at 10:35:27 -0400 -=

> > >=- cflrich at cfl.rr.com wrote on Fri 21.Mar'08 at  9:39:32 -0400 -=
> > > Why don't you do it?
> > 
> > I can't do it all by myself either.
> > Therefore I suggested to share the workload.
> 
> Which portion, exactly, are you volunteering to do?

I asked independently of my person and not for myself alone or in
particular.
It's pointless to discuss any specifics as long as there is a strict
"no way" lingering around. Once this is cleared up, we may
continue with the details of who and what.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From mark at mark.mielke.cc  Fri Mar 21 11:37:18 2008
From: mark at mark.mielke.cc (Mark Mielke)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 12:37:18 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] code-management <-> key-management
In-Reply-To: <20080321161616.GF21617@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <18060994.1554491206110127755.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web28-z02>
	<20080321161616.GF21617@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <47E3E43E.6040104@mark.mielke.cc>

Rado S wrote:
> I asked independently of my person and not for myself alone or in
> particular.
> It's pointless to discuss any specifics as long as there is a strict
> "no way" lingering around. Once this is cleared up, we may
> continue with the details of who and what.
>   

Rado: It's also pointless to speak in generalities. If you have 
something that is reasonable, and you put up, I'm sure all will agree 
with you and let you have your way.

As is it, I see only you debating trivial points with the current owner 
of our respect, to no end that I would agree with, so from my 
perspective, you aren't earning any respect, and as a vote, I implicitly 
vote that whatever James says goes. You are not going to get allies with 
the path you have been taking.

Cheers,
mark

-- 
Mark Mielke <mark at mielke.cc>



From list2rado at gmx.de  Fri Mar 21 11:49:26 2008
From: list2rado at gmx.de (Rado S)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 17:49:26 +0100
Subject: [netrek-dev] code-management <-> key-management
In-Reply-To: <47E3E43E.6040104@mark.mielke.cc>
References: <18060994.1554491206110127755.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web28-z02>
	<20080321161616.GF21617@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<47E3E43E.6040104@mark.mielke.cc>
Message-ID: <20080321164926.GG21617@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- Mark Mielke wrote on Fri 21.Mar'08 at 12:37:18 -0400 -=

> Rado S wrote:
> > I asked independently of my person and not for myself alone or in
> > particular.
> > It's pointless to discuss any specifics as long as there is a strict
> > "no way" lingering around. Once this is cleared up, we may
> > continue with the details of who and what.
> >   
> 
> Rado: It's also pointless to speak in generalities. If you have
> something that is reasonable, and you put up, I'm sure all will
> agree with you and let you have your way.

As a matter of fact, I was speaking very specifically with James.
I wonder why anyone else was speaking up talking about generalities
before he replied, given that he is the only one doing anything.
Don't jump the gun, guys.

> As is it, I see only you debating trivial points with the current
> owner of our respect, to no end that I would agree with, so from
> my perspective, you aren't earning any respect, and as a vote, I
> implicitly vote that whatever James says goes.

Fine, so let him speak for himself.
I never assumed James couldn't speak for himself.

> You are not going to get allies with the path you have been
> taking.

Nor did I assume that either of the 2 of us needed allies.
Is somebody under attack?
If so, who is attacking who by what?

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From cflrich at cfl.rr.com  Fri Mar 21 13:03:40 2008
From: cflrich at cfl.rr.com (cflrich at cfl.rr.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 14:03:40 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] code-management <-> key-management
Message-ID: <21058637.1573431206122620108.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web28-z02>

---- Rado S <list2rado at gmx.de> wrote: 
> =- cflrich at cfl.rr.com wrote on Fri 21.Mar'08 at 10:35:27 -0400 -=
> 
> > > >=- cflrich at cfl.rr.com wrote on Fri 21.Mar'08 at  9:39:32 -0400 -=
> > > > Why don't you do it?
> > > 
> > > I can't do it all by myself either.
> > > Therefore I suggested to share the workload.
> > 
> > Which portion, exactly, are you volunteering to do?
> 
> I asked independently of my person and not for myself alone or in
> particular.

So you suggest we share the workload, but you aren't actually going to take on any portion of it.

> It's pointless to discuss any specifics as long as there is a strict
> "no way" lingering around. Once this is cleared up, we may
> continue with the details of who and what.

I suggest you put up or shut up.  What are you proposing we do, and what exactly are you volunteering to do?

-rich


From jrd at gerdesas.com  Fri Mar 21 14:44:52 2008
From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 14:44:52 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] code-management <-> key-management
In-Reply-To: <21058637.1573431206122620108.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web28-z02>
References: <21058637.1573431206122620108.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web28-z02>
Message-ID: <20080321194452.GA18051@mail.beanhq.com>

On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 02:03:40PM -0400, cflrich at cfl.rr.com wrote:
> 
> I suggest you put up or shut up.  What are you proposing we do, and
> what exactly are you volunteering to do?

	Rado seems to think that there is some huge pool of volunteers
	to draw from.  Sadly, this is not the case.  There are currently
	5 people that have contributed anything in the past few months,
	all of which were server patches.  There are a couple people
	that maintain the web site.  There are a couple more that manage
	various parts of the infrastructure.  And that's really about
	it.

	For all of Rado's talk, I have yet to see any meaningful
	contribution from him; only ceaseless chatter.

	I would be happy to volunteer to build binaries except that as
	far as I am concerned that's a position of trust, both within
	the circle of developers and within the community and I do not
	feel I have earned that level of trust within either group.




							John


-- 
"I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones."
As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to
be put through to an engineer.

"My other computer is your windows box."
                                     Ralf Hildebrandt
<sxem> trying to play sturgeon while it's under attack is apparently not fun.
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From quozl at us.netrek.org  Fri Mar 21 18:17:15 2008
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2008 10:17:15 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] code-management <-> key-management
In-Reply-To: <20080321194452.GA18051@mail.beanhq.com>
References: <21058637.1573431206122620108.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web28-z02>
	<20080321194452.GA18051@mail.beanhq.com>
Message-ID: <20080321231715.GA5932@us.netrek.org>

On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 02:44:52PM -0500, John R. Dennison wrote:
> 	I would be happy to volunteer to build binaries except that as
> 	far as I am concerned that's a position of trust, both within
> 	the circle of developers and within the community and I do not
> 	feel I have earned that level of trust within either group.

The trust need not be isolated to a single individual ... if the build
process is described to the point of falsification, then the trust can
be shared.  Think of the scientific method, where no scientist trusts
anothers results unless they are reproducible, and reproducibility
depends not only on the truth of the findings but also the documentation
of the experiment.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Fri Mar 21 18:35:42 2008
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2008 10:35:42 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] code-management <-> key-management
In-Reply-To: <20080320165058.GA15386@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20080320165058.GA15386@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20080321233542.GB5932@us.netrek.org>

On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 05:50:58PM +0100, Rado S wrote:
> =- James Cameron wrote on Thu 20.Mar'08 at 13:13:33 +1100 -=
> 
> > > > > Could you handle key-management (i.e. client approval) with
> > > > > the same efficiency, since it's basically about code
> > > > > control, given how well you're organized for code review?
> > > > 
> > > > No. It isn't about code control alone, the job would also
> > > > require running clients on various operating systems. I'm just
> > > > not set up for that.
> > > 
> > > Uh, why other platforms?
> > > Isn't it enough to see the "core" is OK and once it passed ask
> > > for others with access to required platforms to help out?
>                                                     ^^^^^^^^
> > To do it right would need both code review, and checking that the
> > binary was built from the code, e.g. by building it again, and
> > then running it.
> 
> What about a trusted community, supporter, servant?

We have that already.

The client developer has the community's full trust.  But the process
they go through lacks transparency and is impossible to verify unless
there is build process documentation.  It is impractical to verify
without build capability.

Our key list manager also has the community's full trust.  The process
they go through to approve a key is more transparent and verifiable.

You're asking whether what I suggested ("To do it right") could be done
by a trusted community, or a supporter, or a servant.  Certainly, yes.

> Can't you trust anyone else besides you?

Yes.

But whom I trust is not at issue here.  It is who you trust that is at
issue.

> Why do you have to do all "the dirty work" by yourself?

Because nobody else does.  I value highly the contributions by client
developers, the five active server developers, the key list manager, and
the web site content developers.  Some of these are areas I have failed
in; such as client development, and web site content development.

Permit my philosophy ... sometimes I take up the baton to do a task, and
do it so badly that someone else comes in to do it better.  I think I do
server development management quite badly (compared to dishwashing), yet
there are no volunteers to take over the role.  I conclude I must be
adequate at it.

Rado, I'm finding your method of encouragement offensive, unwelcome,
idiotic, and incompetent.  I strongly suggest you get personal advice
from someone you trust who can speak the international english we use
here.  Even better if that someone understand the ethics of open source
projects.

Alternative, if you wish to self-improve and learn how to engage this
developer community efficiently, read the book _The Hacker Ethic and the
Spirit of the Information Age_ by the Finnish philosopher Professor
Pekka Himanen.  Perhaps you can find it in a library or a bookshop.
Please your native language version.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From billbalcerski at gmail.com  Fri Mar 21 18:53:38 2008
From: billbalcerski at gmail.com (Bill Balcerski)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 19:53:38 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] code-management <-> key-management
In-Reply-To: <20080321231715.GA5932@us.netrek.org>
References: <21058637.1573431206122620108.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web28-z02>
	<20080321194452.GA18051@mail.beanhq.com>
	<20080321231715.GA5932@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <45ab86180803211653r78e939eci1dbb1dda32ab997d@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 7:17 PM, James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote:
>  ... if the build process is described to the point of falsification, then the trust
> can be shared.

I'm confused by what you meant here, especially by the word
falsification, could you clarify?

Bill


From list2rado at gmx.de  Sat Mar 22 09:18:42 2008
From: list2rado at gmx.de (Rado S)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2008 15:18:42 +0100
Subject: [netrek-dev] code-management <-> key-management
In-Reply-To: <20080321194452.GA18051@mail.beanhq.com>
References: <21058637.1573431206122620108.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web28-z02>
	<20080321194452.GA18051@mail.beanhq.com>
Message-ID: <20080322141842.GB23830@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- John R. Dennison wrote on Fri 21.Mar'08 at 14:44:52 -0500 -=

> Rado seems to think that there is some huge pool of volunteers to
> draw from. Sadly, this is not the case.

Certainly there are not as many volunteers of the capacity of the
mentioned core team.
But there might be some more with less capacity, which could be
worked into the system if their part could/would be reduced below
their threshold.

The question is what you prefer:
a (too) small number of trusted and highly qualified members,
or a bigger number of not so potent members?

I suspect the latter has more chances to get something going
again (relax the thresholds, kind of start over, rebuild clue from
the bottom).
I guess I'm alone with this consideration.

> 5 people that have contributed anything in the past few months,
> all of which were server patches. There are a couple people that
> maintain the web site. There are a couple more that manage various
> parts of the infrastructure. And that's really about it.

But altogether that's like 8 people?
Because several of them do more than just 1 thing.
Of which like 2-4 do the recurring work?
And those are low on time.

> I would be happy to volunteer to build binaries except that as far
> as I am concerned that's a position of trust, both within the
> circle of developers and within the community and I do not feel I
> have earned that level of trust within either group.

If you haven't, how much harder is it for anyone else to get this
trust? What does it take? How long does it take?
Why does it need this?
Why not for the sake of progress let you handle it anyway, just to
get moving again?

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From list2rado at gmx.de  Sat Mar 22 09:27:45 2008
From: list2rado at gmx.de (Rado S)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2008 15:27:45 +0100
Subject: [netrek-dev] purpose of key-management
In-Reply-To: <20080321233542.GB5932@us.netrek.org>
	<20080321231715.GA5932@us.netrek.org>
References: <20080320165058.GA15386@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20080321233542.GB5932@us.netrek.org>
	<21058637.1573431206122620108.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web28-z02>
	<20080321194452.GA18051@mail.beanhq.com>
	<20080321231715.GA5932@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20080322142745.GC23830@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- James Cameron wrote on Sat 22.Mar'08 at 10:17:15 +1100 -=

> On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 02:44:52PM -0500, John R. Dennison wrote:
> > I would be happy to volunteer to build binaries except that as
> > far as I am concerned that's a position of trust, both within
> > the circle of developers and within the community and I do not
> > feel I have earned that level of trust within either group.
> 
> The trust need not be isolated to a single individual ... if the
> build process is described to the point of falsification, then the
> trust can be shared. Think of the scientific method, where no
> scientist trusts anothers results unless they are reproducible,
> and reproducibility depends not only on the truth of the findings
> but also the documentation of the experiment.

Now... this is "just a game". And it doesn't even cost money.
It doesn't need to be scientifically foolproof.
It needs more people participating.
Why can't verification be handed over to a trusted 3rd party?
Like with certification authorities on the web.


=- James Cameron wrote on Sat 22.Mar'08 at 10:35:42 +1100 -=

> On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 05:50:58PM +0100, Rado S wrote:
> 
> > What about a trusted community, supporter, servant?
> 
> We have that already.

*sigh*

Now you, too, ignore the context of that question.
It was not a general question, but for the specific case of the
process to produce blessed binaries on platforms not available to
you personally.

> The client developer has the community's full trust. But the
> process they go through lacks transparency and is impossible to
> verify unless there is build process documentation. It is
> impractical to verify without build capability.
> 
> Our key list manager also has the community's full trust. The
> process they go through to approve a key is more transparent and
> verifiable.

Ok, maybe my perception is wrong then, since I had the feeling
people desired more than was currently offered.
Or you're talking again about something entirely different than I
was.

With key-management I connect a set of features declared "valid", so
players can rely on "fair play" when they use different clients.

You apparently only refer to the blessing process alone. This
doesn't serve anything except to verify that the code originates
from his author, but not what the code does.

The latter is the desire, which isn't fulfilled yet.

If the purpose of the blessing is not "fair play", what is it?
Can we make it work for "fair play", too?
Do we want that? Some obviously do besides me.
If not, why not?

> { rest of comments }

... are missing the point as a consequence of misconception.

> Rado, I'm finding your method of encouragement offensive,
> unwelcome, idiotic, and incompetent.

Maybe because you and I don't share the same interests in the game.
But definitely because we don't share the perspectives on how to
achieve success.

> Alternative, if you wish to self-improve and learn how to engage
> this developer community efficiently, read the book _The Hacker
> Ethic and the Spirit of the Information Age_ by the Finnish
> philosopher Professor Pekka Himanen. Perhaps you can find it in a
> library or a bookshop. Please your native language version.

It's a pity you still believe in "there can only be one way to
success, and that's mine alone".
But then again we might consider "success" differently, too.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From jeffrey.w.watts at gmail.com  Sat Mar 22 14:23:59 2008
From: jeffrey.w.watts at gmail.com (Jeffrey Watts)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2008 14:23:59 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] code-management <-> key-management
In-Reply-To: <20080322141842.GB23830@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <21058637.1573431206122620108.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web28-z02>
	<20080321194452.GA18051@mail.beanhq.com>
	<20080322141842.GB23830@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <65631e800803221223j6c439167xc467606b4f920bff@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 22, 2008 at 9:18 AM, Rado S <list2rado at gmx.de> wrote:
>
>  If you haven't, how much harder is it for anyone else to get this
>  trust? What does it take? How long does it take?
>  Why does it need this?
>  Why not for the sake of progress let you handle it anyway, just to
>  get moving again?

How long does it take for you to stop beating a dead horse?  I really
want to believe that you're something other than a list troll, but
these continued flagellations only seem to reinforce that opinion.

Stop arguing incessantly with the developers.  Produce code or shut
up.  This isn't alt.pointless.arguing.  Stop trying to constantly get
the last word.  Find another hobby if you won't contribute anything to
this one (other than arguing on mailing lists).

Everyone here would love for you to become a useful member of the
community.  You do add some good things, but right now your negatives
drown out your positives.  To be perfectly honest I would have
killfilled all of your posts a while ago except for the fact that Mr
Cameron and others are still nice enough to respond to your circular
arguments, and thus I keep getting dragged into your drama via their
replies.

Jeffrey.

-- 

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy
from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a
precedent that will reach to himself." -- Thomas Paine


From jeffrey.w.watts at gmail.com  Sat Mar 22 14:23:59 2008
From: jeffrey.w.watts at gmail.com (Jeffrey Watts)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2008 14:23:59 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] code-management <-> key-management
In-Reply-To: <20080322141842.GB23830@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <21058637.1573431206122620108.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web28-z02>
	<20080321194452.GA18051@mail.beanhq.com>
	<20080322141842.GB23830@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <65631e800803221223j6c439167xc467606b4f920bff@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 22, 2008 at 9:18 AM, Rado S <list2rado at gmx.de> wrote:
>
>  If you haven't, how much harder is it for anyone else to get this
>  trust? What does it take? How long does it take?
>  Why does it need this?
>  Why not for the sake of progress let you handle it anyway, just to
>  get moving again?

How long does it take for you to stop beating a dead horse?  I really
want to believe that you're something other than a list troll, but
these continued flagellations only seem to reinforce that opinion.

Stop arguing incessantly with the developers.  Produce code or shut
up.  This isn't alt.pointless.arguing.  Stop trying to constantly get
the last word.  Find another hobby if you won't contribute anything to
this one (other than arguing on mailing lists).

Everyone here would love for you to become a useful member of the
community.  You do add some good things, but right now your negatives
drown out your positives.  To be perfectly honest I would have
killfilled all of your posts a while ago except for the fact that Mr
Cameron and others are still nice enough to respond to your circular
arguments, and thus I keep getting dragged into your drama via their
replies.

Jeffrey.

-- 

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy
from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a
precedent that will reach to himself." -- Thomas Paine


From joe at romulus.netrek.org  Sat Mar 22 14:37:33 2008
From: joe at romulus.netrek.org (Joe Evango)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2008 12:37:33 -0700
Subject: [netrek-dev] purpose of key-management
References: <20080320165058.GA15386@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de><20080321233542.GB5932@us.netrek.org><21058637.1573431206122620108.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web28-z02><20080321194452.GA18051@mail.beanhq.com><20080321231715.GA5932@us.netrek.org>
	<20080322142745.GC23830@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <14ac01c88c54$2cd00170$0201a8c0@joesmain>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rado S" <list2rado at gmx.de>
<*snip* all your emails for this thread are here>

What is it 'specifically' you are volunteering to do Rado?

Your emails are extremely confusing. You are never satisfied with the
answers you receive so the threads you involve yourself in become endless
and more confusing every time you respond.

You speak of people "ignoring the context" of your responses but if you
notice, many people seem to be doing this so perhaps it is not in the way
they are reading your emails but rather the way you are composing them.

Please get to the point already. What are you volunteering to do? Don't
respond with 20 questions, just get to the point and in one sentence explain
what it is you are volunteering to do.

-Joe 



From quozl at us.netrek.org  Sun Mar 23 03:46:45 2008
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 19:46:45 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] code-management <-> key-management
In-Reply-To: <45ab86180803211653r78e939eci1dbb1dda32ab997d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21058637.1573431206122620108.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web28-z02>
	<20080321194452.GA18051@mail.beanhq.com>
	<20080321231715.GA5932@us.netrek.org>
	<45ab86180803211653r78e939eci1dbb1dda32ab997d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080323084645.GA16638@us.netrek.org>

On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 07:53:38PM -0400, Bill Balcerski wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 7:17 PM, James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote:
> >  ... if the build process is described to the point of falsification, then the trust
> > can be shared.
> 
> I'm confused by what you meant here, especially by the word
> falsification, could you clarify?

Consider the assertion that a client contains an unfair feature that is
hidden.  Now try to refute or test that assertion.  That process is
falsification.  The process relies on evidence, in the form of source
code (for your client), the build process, and the binary.  It also
relies on experimentation with the binary.

I'm not saying your client has any unfair feature, though I imagine
others might want to argue the point ... what I'm trying to get as is
the process needed to declare it fair.

I've not reviewed the build process for your client, nor have I
experimented with it.  I've occasionally reviewed source code changes.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Sun Mar 23 03:58:11 2008
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 19:58:11 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] purpose of key-management
In-Reply-To: <20080322142745.GC23830@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20080320165058.GA15386@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20080321233542.GB5932@us.netrek.org>
	<21058637.1573431206122620108.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web28-z02>
	<20080321194452.GA18051@mail.beanhq.com>
	<20080321231715.GA5932@us.netrek.org>
	<20080322142745.GC23830@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20080323085811.GB16638@us.netrek.org>

On Sat, Mar 22, 2008 at 03:27:45PM +0100, Rado S wrote:
> =- James Cameron wrote on Sat 22.Mar'08 at 10:17:15 +1100 -=
> 
> > On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 02:44:52PM -0500, John R. Dennison wrote:
> > > I would be happy to volunteer to build binaries except that as
> > > far as I am concerned that's a position of trust, both within
> > > the circle of developers and within the community and I do not
> > > feel I have earned that level of trust within either group.
> > 
> > The trust need not be isolated to a single individual ... if the
> > build process is described to the point of falsification, then the
> > trust can be shared. Think of the scientific method, where no
> > scientist trusts anothers results unless they are reproducible,
> > and reproducibility depends not only on the truth of the findings
> > but also the documentation of the experiment.
> 
> Now... this is "just a game". And it doesn't even cost money.
> It doesn't need to be scientifically foolproof.
> It needs more people participating.

So you think that participation by more people is more important than
the reliability and rigour of the blessing process.  Interesting.  You
place more value in votes than results.

> Why can't verification be handed over to a trusted 3rd party?
> Like with certification authorities on the web.
> 
> 
> =- James Cameron wrote on Sat 22.Mar'08 at 10:35:42 +1100 -=
> 
> > On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 05:50:58PM +0100, Rado S wrote:
> > 
> > > What about a trusted community, supporter, servant?
> > 
> > We have that already.
> 
> *sigh*
> 
> Now you, too, ignore the context of that question.

The context was there, and I saw you had said of others that the context
was ignored, so I tried really hard to perceive the context.  But
evidently I failed.  I think you have done a bad job of establishing
context.

(Mind you, about this time last year we were demanding that you include
context, and ask simple questions rather than long ones, so I suggest
that the real problem is a semantic barrier rather than a formatting
issue.)

> It was not a general question, but for the specific case of the
> process to produce blessed binaries on platforms not available to
> you personally.

My specific answer was "We have that already."  Since I included
context, I didn't need to say "We have already got trusted community,
supporter, or servant, for the specific case of the process to produce
blessed binaries on platforms not available to me personally."

> 
> > The client developer has the community's full trust. But the
> > process they go through lacks transparency and is impossible to
> > verify unless there is build process documentation. It is
> > impractical to verify without build capability.
> > 
> > Our key list manager also has the community's full trust. The
> > process they go through to approve a key is more transparent and
> > verifiable.
> 
> Ok, maybe my perception is wrong then, since I had the feeling
> people desired more than was currently offered.
> Or you're talking again about something entirely different than I
> was.
> 
> With key-management I connect a set of features declared "valid", so
> players can rely on "fair play" when they use different clients.
> 
> You apparently only refer to the blessing process alone. This
> doesn't serve anything except to verify that the code originates
> from his author, but not what the code does.
> 
> The latter is the desire, which isn't fulfilled yet.

It is fulfilled.

> If the purpose of the blessing is not "fair play", what is it?

For you, the purpose appears to be ...

1.  maximise the number of people involved in the process so as to
create a sense of popular approval of the process which will have a
greater weight than technical analysis,

2.  waste the time of Bronco developers as a means to make Paradise
thrive.

> Can we make it work for "fair play", too?
> Do we want that? Some obviously do besides me.
> If not, why not?
> 
> > { rest of comments }
> 
> ... are missing the point as a consequence of misconception.
> 
> > Rado, I'm finding your method of encouragement offensive,
> > unwelcome, idiotic, and incompetent.
> 
> Maybe because you and I don't share the same interests in the game.

I don't get to play against you.  You're never on pickled when I join.

> But definitely because we don't share the perspectives on how to
> achieve success.
> 
> > Alternative, if you wish to self-improve and learn how to engage
> > this developer community efficiently, read the book _The Hacker
> > Ethic and the Spirit of the Information Age_ by the Finnish
> > philosopher Professor Pekka Himanen. Perhaps you can find it in a
> > library or a bookshop. Please your native language version.
> 
> It's a pity you still believe in "there can only be one way to
> success, and that's mine alone".
> But then again we might consider "success" differently, too.

I don't care for success.

Kill-filed for a month.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From list2rado at gmx.de  Tue Mar 25 15:28:50 2008
From: list2rado at gmx.de (Rado S)
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 21:28:50 +0100
Subject: [netrek-dev] code-management <-> key-management
In-Reply-To: <65631e800803221223j6c439167xc467606b4f920bff@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21058637.1573431206122620108.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web28-z02>
	<20080321194452.GA18051@mail.beanhq.com>
	<20080322141842.GB23830@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<65631e800803221223j6c439167xc467606b4f920bff@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080325202849.GA1059@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- Jeffrey Watts wrote on Sat 22.Mar'08 at 14:23:59 -0500 -=

> > If you haven't, how much harder is it for anyone else to get
> > this trust? What does it take? How long does it take? Why does
> > it need this? Why not for the sake of progress let you handle it
> > anyway, just to get moving again?
> 
> How long does it take for you to stop beating a dead horse?
> {...}
> To be perfectly honest I would have killfilled all of your posts a
> while ago except for the fact that Mr Cameron and others are still
> nice enough to respond to your circular arguments, and thus I keep
> getting dragged into your drama via their replies.

I'm sorry for them replying and therefore annoying you even more
than by myself alone.

> Stop trying to constantly get the last word.

I'm sorry, I don't do that intentionally.
I tend not to stop as long as the answers open new questions.

> Stop arguing incessantly with the developers.

I'm sorry it's always the same one.
It wasn't my intention originally that it turned into a dialogue
again.

> Produce code or shut up.

So code is the answer to everything?
I'm sorry that I see alternatives and was hoping for others to see
them, too.

> You do add some good things, but right now your negatives
> drown out your positives.

...

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From jeffrey.w.watts at gmail.com  Tue Mar 25 16:05:56 2008
From: jeffrey.w.watts at gmail.com (Jeffrey Watts)
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 16:05:56 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] code-management <-> key-management
In-Reply-To: <20080325202849.GA1059@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <21058637.1573431206122620108.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web28-z02>
	<20080321194452.GA18051@mail.beanhq.com>
	<20080322141842.GB23830@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<65631e800803221223j6c439167xc467606b4f920bff@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080325202849.GA1059@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <65631e800803251405p24bbfbecxf8278bc05d3537e5@mail.gmail.com>

Your positive contributions are being overwhelmed by the big negatives
you bring to this mailing list.  You have tons of ideas but very
little support from the community.  Your exhausting persistence in
promoting them despite a lack of enthusiasm from anyone else only
seems to serve to annoy people.  I'm not sure if the lack of support
is due to the inadequacy of the ideas themselves or the poor manner in
which you promote them.  I suspect the latter more than the former.

This is a meritocracy, and when faced by a lack of support for your
ideas you need to either implement them yourself (and thus let the
ideas stand on their own merit) or stop complaining that others won't.
 Leaders in the geek community aren't leaders because they shout the
loudest - they're leaders because they get things done.  In this
community, "getting things done" generally means contributing new code
or fixing old code.  Thus my comment about producing code.

Jeffrey.

On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 3:28 PM, Rado S <list2rado at gmx.de> wrote:
>  > Produce code or shut up.
>
>  So code is the answer to everything?
>  I'm sorry that I see alternatives and was hoping for others to see
>  them, too.


-- 

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy
from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a
precedent that will reach to himself." -- Thomas Paine


From jeffrey.w.watts at gmail.com  Tue Mar 25 16:05:56 2008
From: jeffrey.w.watts at gmail.com (Jeffrey Watts)
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 16:05:56 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] code-management <-> key-management
In-Reply-To: <20080325202849.GA1059@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <21058637.1573431206122620108.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web28-z02>
	<20080321194452.GA18051@mail.beanhq.com>
	<20080322141842.GB23830@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<65631e800803221223j6c439167xc467606b4f920bff@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080325202849.GA1059@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <65631e800803251405p24bbfbecxf8278bc05d3537e5@mail.gmail.com>

Your positive contributions are being overwhelmed by the big negatives
you bring to this mailing list.  You have tons of ideas but very
little support from the community.  Your exhausting persistence in
promoting them despite a lack of enthusiasm from anyone else only
seems to serve to annoy people.  I'm not sure if the lack of support
is due to the inadequacy of the ideas themselves or the poor manner in
which you promote them.  I suspect the latter more than the former.

This is a meritocracy, and when faced by a lack of support for your
ideas you need to either implement them yourself (and thus let the
ideas stand on their own merit) or stop complaining that others won't.
 Leaders in the geek community aren't leaders because they shout the
loudest - they're leaders because they get things done.  In this
community, "getting things done" generally means contributing new code
or fixing old code.  Thus my comment about producing code.

Jeffrey.

On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 3:28 PM, Rado S <list2rado at gmx.de> wrote:
>  > Produce code or shut up.
>
>  So code is the answer to everything?
>  I'm sorry that I see alternatives and was hoping for others to see
>  them, too.


-- 

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy
from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a
precedent that will reach to himself." -- Thomas Paine


From list2rado at gmx.de  Tue Mar 25 16:06:12 2008
From: list2rado at gmx.de (Rado S)
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 22:06:12 +0100
Subject: [netrek-dev] purpose of key-management
In-Reply-To: <20080323085811.GB16638@us.netrek.org>
References: <20080320165058.GA15386@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20080321233542.GB5932@us.netrek.org>
	<21058637.1573431206122620108.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web28-z02>
	<20080321194452.GA18051@mail.beanhq.com>
	<20080321231715.GA5932@us.netrek.org>
	<20080322142745.GC23830@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20080323085811.GB16638@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20080325210612.GB1059@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- James Cameron wrote on Sun 23.Mar'08 at 19:58:11 +1100 -=

> > > Think of the scientific method, where no scientist trusts
> > > anothers results unless they are reproducible, and
> > > reproducibility depends not only on the truth of the findings
> > > but also the documentation of the experiment.
> > 
> > Now... this is "just a game". And it doesn't even cost money.
> > It doesn't need to be scientifically foolproof.
> > It needs more people participating.
> 
> So you think that participation by more people is more important
> than the reliability and rigour of the blessing process.
> Interesting. You place more value in votes than results.

Yes, in this case, as I see it.
What good are results when very few vote at all?
The quality filter/ process can return once the quantity is back again.
I rather rely more on trust in the more participants than a
foolproof code.
 Finding someone do the complete thing is harder than finding a few
sharing it and replacing single failures to keep it running.

> > > We have that already.
> > 
> > *sigh*
> > 
> > Now you, too, ignore the context of that question.
> 
> The context was there, and I saw you had said of others that the
> context was ignored, so I tried really hard to perceive the
> context.
> I think you have done a bad job of establishing context.

I actually did a bad job when talking to you, I regret that
with hindsight.
I remembered wrong that you _had_ a different use for
"key-management" than the one on my mind, as opposed to having none,
what I believed until now.

> (Mind you, about this time last year we were demanding that you
> include context, and ask simple questions rather than long ones,
> so I suggest that the real problem is a semantic barrier rather
> than a formatting issue.)

Probably, given that I still believe back than I was giving context,
just as today a different than you (want(ed) to) have.

> > With key-management I connect a set of features declared "valid", so
> > players can rely on "fair play" when they use different clients.
> > 
> > You apparently only refer to the blessing process alone. This
> > doesn't serve anything except to verify that the code originates
> > from his author, but not what the code does.
> > 
> > The latter is the desire, which isn't fulfilled yet.
> 
> It is fulfilled.

Ok, that was a typo now.
Yes, the latter is fullfilled.
But the former is desired, too, but not equally fullfilled.

> > If the purpose of the blessing is not "fair play", what is it?
> 
> For you, the purpose appears to be ...

I was asking about current practice.

> 1. maximise the number of people involved in the process so as to
> create a sense of popular approval of the process which will have
> a greater weight than technical analysis,

This is how it works with masses.

> 2. waste the time of Bronco developers as a means to make Paradise
> thrive.

*lol*

How does this relate?

Funny... if you seriously believe I want to bring down any netrek
just for itself or even to push Paradise, then you never should have
responded in the first place.

> > Maybe because you and I don't share the same interests in the
> > game.
> 
> I don't get to play against you. You're never on pickled when I
> join.
> {...}
> I don't care for success.

Those answers pretty much bring it to the point.

> Kill-filed for a month.

As you wish, but a little too late now.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From list2rado at gmx.de  Wed Mar 26 14:21:17 2008
From: list2rado at gmx.de (Rado S)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 20:21:17 +0100
Subject: [netrek-dev] merit of code
In-Reply-To: <65631e800803251405p24bbfbecxf8278bc05d3537e5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21058637.1573431206122620108.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web28-z02>
	<20080321194452.GA18051@mail.beanhq.com>
	<20080322141842.GB23830@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<65631e800803221223j6c439167xc467606b4f920bff@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080325202849.GA1059@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<65631e800803251405p24bbfbecxf8278bc05d3537e5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080326192116.GA15577@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- Jeffrey Watts wrote on Tue 25.Mar'08 at 16:05:56 -0500 -=

> You have tons of ideas but very little support from the community.
> Your exhausting persistence in promoting them despite a lack of
> enthusiasm from anyone else only seems to serve to annoy people.

... because always the same respond 1st and/or only.
Maybe I'm mistaken and the list actually consists of only a handful
of people to always run into the same. In that case I'm again sorry.

Then again, even among the few I noticed signals deviating from the
only true path.  I'll do better at ignoring them from now on.

> I'm not sure if the lack of support is due to the inadequacy of
> the ideas themselves or the poor manner in which you promote them.
> I suspect the latter more than the former.

I suspect even another.

> Leaders in the geek community aren't leaders because they shout
> the loudest - they're leaders because they get things done.

If you mean me by "shouting", I'm not after being a leader.
I'm also after getting things done, just not code directly now, but
as a result of systematic changes in the long run.

> This is a meritocracy, and when faced by a lack of support for
> your ideas you need to either implement them yourself (and thus
> let the ideas stand on their own merit) {...}

It's easy to fork code (needs just 1 person), but not workflow
environments designed to work with many rather than a few, when
there are too few left altogether.
 More code doesn't produce more people working with it.
 You have to work for a living, but you have to spend
(and risk) money to make more money. There is enough
code to live, it needs more people to live better.

> {...} or stop complaining that others won't.
> In this community, "getting things done" generally means
> contributing new code or fixing old code. Thus my comment about
> producing code.

There is more to "merit" than only literal code.
But you're right, nothing has changed since 1y+ ago.
 So I will stop exploring (*) the current state and different ways
to go, and join the silence of the good old true way.

(* as it was intended rather than "complaining" as you perceive it;
but does it make a difference for you?)

(BTW, the list is "forked", can we have it re-unite to
@lists.netrek.org?)

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From jeffrey.w.watts at gmail.com  Fri Mar 28 01:48:00 2008
From: jeffrey.w.watts at gmail.com (Jeffrey Watts)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 01:48:00 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] merit of code
In-Reply-To: <20080326192116.GA15577@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <21058637.1573431206122620108.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web28-z02>
	<20080321194452.GA18051@mail.beanhq.com>
	<20080322141842.GB23830@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<65631e800803221223j6c439167xc467606b4f920bff@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080325202849.GA1059@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<65631e800803251405p24bbfbecxf8278bc05d3537e5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080326192116.GA15577@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <65631e800803272348p4931c192nf9d398888bd5bde3@mail.gmail.com>

By responding to every sentence I wrote you kind of missed my point,
but I do appreciate that you feel the need to explain your views.  You
see, this kind of "explaining your views" is your problem.  You keep
explaining them over and over again until people either ignore you or
make fun of you.  Most of the developers that still respond to you are
obviously not taking you seriously at all, and your continued
onslaught of comments only serves to make it worse.

I don't see you as a bad person, my personal opinion is that your
communication techniques are very flawed and backfire on you.  You've
been a good cheerleader for Paradise - but it's clear that your
efforts here aren't helpful.

In this case, the point of my comments was to make the statement that
you need to stop replying to everything that's said to you - you need
to make your point and move on.  You do not move on.  You go quiet for
a month or so, then post, post, post there it comes again.  Anyhow,
I'm going against my better judgment to try to explain this to you
again.  I must admit that my earlier posts were a bit too laden with
pique to be very constructive.

Please take my words into consideration.  I do not intend to have an
ongoing discussion about this with you, so you ought to spare your
usual wall of text.  :)

Jeffrey.

On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 2:21 PM, Rado S <list2rado at gmx.de> wrote:
>
>  ... because always the same respond 1st and/or only.
>  Maybe I'm mistaken and the list actually consists of only a handful
>  of people to always run into the same. In that case I'm again sorry.
[ ... snip ... ]


-- 

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy
from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a
precedent that will reach to himself." -- Thomas Paine


From jeffrey.w.watts at gmail.com  Fri Mar 28 01:48:00 2008
From: jeffrey.w.watts at gmail.com (Jeffrey Watts)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 01:48:00 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] merit of code
In-Reply-To: <20080326192116.GA15577@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <21058637.1573431206122620108.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web28-z02>
	<20080321194452.GA18051@mail.beanhq.com>
	<20080322141842.GB23830@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<65631e800803221223j6c439167xc467606b4f920bff@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080325202849.GA1059@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<65631e800803251405p24bbfbecxf8278bc05d3537e5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080326192116.GA15577@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <65631e800803272348p4931c192nf9d398888bd5bde3@mail.gmail.com>

By responding to every sentence I wrote you kind of missed my point,
but I do appreciate that you feel the need to explain your views.  You
see, this kind of "explaining your views" is your problem.  You keep
explaining them over and over again until people either ignore you or
make fun of you.  Most of the developers that still respond to you are
obviously not taking you seriously at all, and your continued
onslaught of comments only serves to make it worse.

I don't see you as a bad person, my personal opinion is that your
communication techniques are very flawed and backfire on you.  You've
been a good cheerleader for Paradise - but it's clear that your
efforts here aren't helpful.

In this case, the point of my comments was to make the statement that
you need to stop replying to everything that's said to you - you need
to make your point and move on.  You do not move on.  You go quiet for
a month or so, then post, post, post there it comes again.  Anyhow,
I'm going against my better judgment to try to explain this to you
again.  I must admit that my earlier posts were a bit too laden with
pique to be very constructive.

Please take my words into consideration.  I do not intend to have an
ongoing discussion about this with you, so you ought to spare your
usual wall of text.  :)

Jeffrey.

On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 2:21 PM, Rado S <list2rado at gmx.de> wrote:
>
>  ... because always the same respond 1st and/or only.
>  Maybe I'm mistaken and the list actually consists of only a handful
>  of people to always run into the same. In that case I'm again sorry.
[ ... snip ... ]


-- 

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy
from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a
precedent that will reach to himself." -- Thomas Paine


From list2rado at gmx.de  Fri Mar 28 15:18:27 2008
From: list2rado at gmx.de (Rado S)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 21:18:27 +0100
Subject: [netrek-dev] merit of code
In-Reply-To: <65631e800803272348p4931c192nf9d398888bd5bde3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21058637.1573431206122620108.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web28-z02>
	<20080321194452.GA18051@mail.beanhq.com>
	<20080322141842.GB23830@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<65631e800803221223j6c439167xc467606b4f920bff@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080325202849.GA1059@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<65631e800803251405p24bbfbecxf8278bc05d3537e5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080326192116.GA15577@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<65631e800803272348p4931c192nf9d398888bd5bde3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080328201827.GB4351@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- Jeffrey Watts wrote on Fri 28.Mar'08 at  1:48:00 -0500 -=

> Anyhow, I'm going against my better judgment to try to explain
> this to you again.

Funny that you mention this, those were exactly my thoughts, too. :)
Bear with me a last time, then judge better. ;)

> By responding to every sentence I wrote you kind of missed my point,
> but I do appreciate that you feel the need to explain your views.

It's useless (for me) to go this far and then let wrong impressions
stay as last words. I'm not the bad guy despite opposing the main
guy seen as "good". There isn't just black and white.

> You see, this kind of "explaining your views" is your problem.
> {...}
> you need to make your point and move on. You do not move on. You
> go quiet for a month or so, then post, post, post there it comes
> again.

If I wouldn't have had moved on, I wouldn't have stumbled over
the meta-server issues to raise them, which were the origin of this
activity. One query led to another. Besides, netrek decisions have
changed over course of time, so there are chances other things
change, too.

No, "explaining" is not the problem. It helps understand and make
people think.
 Sometimes new insights pop up.
 I learned something new about James (and other things), so I
thought it could be combined with something else.
 This time I just forgot a fact which would have stopped me from
going the known wrong way again. I didn't recall until we clashed
again about it.

> Most of the developers that still respond to you are obviously not
> taking you seriously at all, and your continued onslaught of
> comments only serves to make it worse.

I'm not blind, I'm aware of that. So obviously I'm not responding
only for/ to them, as much as my original questions weren't limited
to them. It's a pity the same few people responded the same way.
(Is this really all that is left?)
 While I said I'm sorry for them responding when they shouldn't,
it's still up to them. If there is interest in learning, then
follow through, otherwise don't even start.

> I don't see you as a bad person, my personal opinion is that your
> communication techniques are very flawed and backfire on you.

I'm probably mistaken about the energy and diversity total that is
left in netrek to find some likeminded folks.


Anyway: you keep doubling the posts by using 2 addrs. Please use
just @lists.netrek.org.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From cflrich at cfl.rr.com  Fri Mar 28 15:36:30 2008
From: cflrich at cfl.rr.com (cflrich at cfl.rr.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 16:36:30 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] merit of code
Message-ID: <30510607.823131206736591037.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web12-z02>

Well, this has got to be the definition of irony, right?

ROFL

---- Rado S <list2rado at gmx.de> wrote: 
> =- Jeffrey Watts wrote on Fri 28.Mar'08 at  1:48:00 -0500 -=
> 
> > Anyhow, I'm going against my better judgment to try to explain
> > this to you again.
> 
> Funny that you mention this, those were exactly my thoughts, too. :)
> Bear with me a last time, then judge better. ;)
> 
> > By responding to every sentence I wrote you kind of missed my point,
> > but I do appreciate that you feel the need to explain your views.
> 
> It's useless (for me) to go this far and then let wrong impressions
> stay as last words. I'm not the bad guy despite opposing the main
> guy seen as "good". There isn't just black and white.
> 
> > You see, this kind of "explaining your views" is your problem.
> > {...}
> > you need to make your point and move on. You do not move on. You
> > go quiet for a month or so, then post, post, post there it comes
> > again.
> 
> If I wouldn't have had moved on, I wouldn't have stumbled over
> the meta-server issues to raise them, which were the origin of this
> activity. One query led to another. Besides, netrek decisions have
> changed over course of time, so there are chances other things
> change, too.
> 
> No, "explaining" is not the problem. It helps understand and make
> people think.
>  Sometimes new insights pop up.
>  I learned something new about James (and other things), so I
> thought it could be combined with something else.
>  This time I just forgot a fact which would have stopped me from
> going the known wrong way again. I didn't recall until we clashed
> again about it.
> 
> > Most of the developers that still respond to you are obviously not
> > taking you seriously at all, and your continued onslaught of
> > comments only serves to make it worse.
> 
> I'm not blind, I'm aware of that. So obviously I'm not responding
> only for/ to them, as much as my original questions weren't limited
> to them. It's a pity the same few people responded the same way.
> (Is this really all that is left?)
>  While I said I'm sorry for them responding when they shouldn't,
> it's still up to them. If there is interest in learning, then
> follow through, otherwise don't even start.
> 
> > I don't see you as a bad person, my personal opinion is that your
> > communication techniques are very flawed and backfire on you.
> 
> I'm probably mistaken about the energy and diversity total that is
> left in netrek to find some likeminded folks.
> 
> 
> Anyway: you keep doubling the posts by using 2 addrs. Please use
> just @lists.netrek.org.
> 
> -- 
> ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
> EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
> You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> netrek-dev mailing list
> netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
> http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev



From jrd at gerdesas.com  Fri Mar 28 15:47:25 2008
From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 15:47:25 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] merit of code
In-Reply-To: <20080328201827.GB4351@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <21058637.1573431206122620108.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web28-z02>
	<20080321194452.GA18051@mail.beanhq.com>
	<20080322141842.GB23830@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<65631e800803221223j6c439167xc467606b4f920bff@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080325202849.GA1059@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<65631e800803251405p24bbfbecxf8278bc05d3537e5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080326192116.GA15577@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<65631e800803272348p4931c192nf9d398888bd5bde3@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080328201827.GB4351@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20080328204725.GL21646@mail.beanhq.com>

On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 09:18:27PM +0100, Rado S wrote:
> =- Jeffrey Watts wrote on Fri 28.Mar'08 at  1:48:00 -0500 -=
> 
> > Anyhow, I'm going against my better judgment to try to explain
> > this to you again.

	And I am going against my better judgement against feeding
	the trolls.

	Rado,

	For the past few months you have eaten my bandwidth and cost me
	time (and in my business, time is money) wading through your
	posts in the hope that there might be some hidden nugget
	of value buried within.

	Time after time I have been disappointed to find that my
	initial hunches were right and it's just more wasted
	bandwidth.

	I am now joining James in procmail'ing your posts to 
	a black hole for a month.

	You just don't take the hints.  You don't listen and/or
	learn.  You are doing nothing but wasting my time, yet
	again.

	Please, save the bandwidth and the time for everyone else
	on this list by not replying to this message.

	See you in a month.





							John

-- 
"I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones."
As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to
be put through to an engineer.

"My other computer is your windows box."
                                     Ralf Hildebrandt
<sxem> trying to play sturgeon while it's under attack is apparently not fun.
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From msucka0xff at programmer.net  Mon Mar 31 17:12:24 2008
From: msucka0xff at programmer.net (. .)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 14:12:24 -0800
Subject: [netrek-dev] merit of code
Message-ID: <20080331221225.21AB5164288@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com>

Folks,

Personally I think Rado is trying to address some important issues, some
that may have existed for a very long time and has held netrek
development back since the change of the old guard to the new through
over 12 years of evolution. For example, when I returned after a hiatus
with purpose of developering cool things and going in some new direction,
I found surprise at unusual resistance and rejection of my efforts from
administrators, and an inner clique which left me out in the cold. This
was rather frustrating to me, since I operated on the assumption that my
work would and should be adopted quickly. I am not certain Rado is
addressing these same issues, but as far as I can tell it seems to be
along these lines.

-bd

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "John R. Dennison"
  To: netrek-dev at lists.netrek.org
  Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] merit of code
  Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 15:47:25 -0500


  On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 09:18:27PM +0100, Rado S wrote:
  > =- Jeffrey Watts wrote on Fri 28.Mar'08 at 1:48:00 -0500 -=
  >
  > > Anyhow, I'm going against my better judgment to try to explain
  > > this to you again.

  And I am going against my better judgement against feeding
  the trolls.

  Rado,

  For the past few months you have eaten my bandwidth and cost me
  time (and in my business, time is money) wading through your
  posts in the hope that there might be some hidden nugget
  of value buried within.

  Time after time I have been disappointed to find that my
  initial hunches were right and it's just more wasted
  bandwidth.

  I am now joining James in procmail'ing your posts to
  a black hole for a month.

  You just don't take the hints. You don't listen and/or
  learn. You are doing nothing but wasting my time, yet
  again.

  Please, save the bandwidth and the time for everyone else
  on this list by not replying to this message.

  See you in a month.





  John

  --
  "I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones."
  As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when
  asked to
  be put through to an engineer.

  "My other computer is your windows box."
  Ralf Hildebrandt
  trying to play sturgeon while it's under attack is apparently not
  fun.
  << 1.2.dat >>

  _______________________________________________
  netrek-dev mailing list
  netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
  http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev

-- 
Want an e-mail address like mine?
Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com!

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From msucka0xff at programmer.net  Mon Mar 31 17:12:24 2008
From: msucka0xff at programmer.net (. .)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 14:12:24 -0800
Subject: [netrek-dev] merit of code
Message-ID: <20080331221225.21AB5164288@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com>

Folks,

Personally I think Rado is trying to address some important issues, some
that may have existed for a very long time and has held netrek
development back since the change of the old guard to the new through
over 12 years of evolution. For example, when I returned after a hiatus
with purpose of developering cool things and going in some new direction,
I found surprise at unusual resistance and rejection of my efforts from
administrators, and an inner clique which left me out in the cold. This
was rather frustrating to me, since I operated on the assumption that my
work would and should be adopted quickly. I am not certain Rado is
addressing these same issues, but as far as I can tell it seems to be
along these lines.

-bd

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "John R. Dennison"
  To: netrek-dev at lists.netrek.org
  Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] merit of code
  Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 15:47:25 -0500


  On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 09:18:27PM +0100, Rado S wrote:
  > =- Jeffrey Watts wrote on Fri 28.Mar'08 at 1:48:00 -0500 -=
  >
  > > Anyhow, I'm going against my better judgment to try to explain
  > > this to you again.

  And I am going against my better judgement against feeding
  the trolls.

  Rado,

  For the past few months you have eaten my bandwidth and cost me
  time (and in my business, time is money) wading through your
  posts in the hope that there might be some hidden nugget
  of value buried within.

  Time after time I have been disappointed to find that my
  initial hunches were right and it's just more wasted
  bandwidth.

  I am now joining James in procmail'ing your posts to
  a black hole for a month.

  You just don't take the hints. You don't listen and/or
  learn. You are doing nothing but wasting my time, yet
  again.

  Please, save the bandwidth and the time for everyone else
  on this list by not replying to this message.

  See you in a month.





  John

  --
  "I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones."
  As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when
  asked to
  be put through to an engineer.

  "My other computer is your windows box."
  Ralf Hildebrandt
  trying to play sturgeon while it's under attack is apparently not
  fun.
  << 1.2.dat >>

  _______________________________________________
  netrek-dev mailing list
  netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
  http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev

-- 
Want an e-mail address like mine?
Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com!

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From mark at mark.mielke.cc  Mon Mar 31 17:28:04 2008
From: mark at mark.mielke.cc (Mark Mielke)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 18:28:04 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] merit of code
In-Reply-To: <20080331221225.21AB5164288@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com>
References: <20080331221225.21AB5164288@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com>
Message-ID: <47F16574.2010109@mark.mielke.cc>


> Personally I think Rado is trying to address some important issues, 
> some that may have existed for a very long time and has held netrek 
> development back since the change of the old guard to the new through 
> over 12 years of evolution. For example, when I returned after a 
> hiatus with purpose of developering cool things and going in some new 
> direction, I found surprise at unusual resistance and rejection of my 
> efforts from administrators, and an inner clique which left me out in 
> the cold. This was rather frustrating to me, since I operated on the 
> assumption that my work would and should be adopted quickly. I am not 
> certain Rado is addressing these same issues, but as far as I can tell 
> it seems to be along these lines.

Just like any other open source project - "cool things" are not always 
desired. If you went to the Linux kernel list and presented yourself the 
same as Rado, demanding for somebody in authority to offer volunteers to 
work on your favourite whizbang feature, the reaction would be far more 
hostile than we see here.

There are people that put up, and there are people that talk. As far as 
I am concerned, James has been putting up. I find myself continuously 
confused over what Rado is asking for (over months or years?), and see 
him being critical of James and existing process. My first reaction will 
definitely be to challenge Rado under these circumstances.

The last time I attempted to contribute code here, I believe the 
reaction was generally welcome, with concerns about my choices, and a 
request that I come back once I had worked some details out, or consider 
keeping the patches separate as they were not universally appreciated. I 
was listened to, I believe one patch may have made it in, and I have 
kept some patches separate. I was not part of an "inner clique" - and 
beyond being a person who still reads this list and responds, I don't 
think I am currently part of any "inner clique".

I merely don't like my mailbox being spammed by somebody presenting an 
unknown position over dozens of messages, that try as hard as I might, I 
still cannot understand. It's possible I am stupid and that Rado is so 
far advanced in comparison that anything he says will blow right past me 
- but I don't truly believe this, and I believe the reaction of others 
coincides with mine.

Cheers,
mark

-- 
Mark Mielke <mark at mielke.cc>



From mark at mark.mielke.cc  Mon Mar 31 17:28:04 2008
From: mark at mark.mielke.cc (Mark Mielke)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 18:28:04 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] merit of code
In-Reply-To: <20080331221225.21AB5164288@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com>
References: <20080331221225.21AB5164288@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com>
Message-ID: <47F16574.2010109@mark.mielke.cc>


> Personally I think Rado is trying to address some important issues, 
> some that may have existed for a very long time and has held netrek 
> development back since the change of the old guard to the new through 
> over 12 years of evolution. For example, when I returned after a 
> hiatus with purpose of developering cool things and going in some new 
> direction, I found surprise at unusual resistance and rejection of my 
> efforts from administrators, and an inner clique which left me out in 
> the cold. This was rather frustrating to me, since I operated on the 
> assumption that my work would and should be adopted quickly. I am not 
> certain Rado is addressing these same issues, but as far as I can tell 
> it seems to be along these lines.

Just like any other open source project - "cool things" are not always 
desired. If you went to the Linux kernel list and presented yourself the 
same as Rado, demanding for somebody in authority to offer volunteers to 
work on your favourite whizbang feature, the reaction would be far more 
hostile than we see here.

There are people that put up, and there are people that talk. As far as 
I am concerned, James has been putting up. I find myself continuously 
confused over what Rado is asking for (over months or years?), and see 
him being critical of James and existing process. My first reaction will 
definitely be to challenge Rado under these circumstances.

The last time I attempted to contribute code here, I believe the 
reaction was generally welcome, with concerns about my choices, and a 
request that I come back once I had worked some details out, or consider 
keeping the patches separate as they were not universally appreciated. I 
was listened to, I believe one patch may have made it in, and I have 
kept some patches separate. I was not part of an "inner clique" - and 
beyond being a person who still reads this list and responds, I don't 
think I am currently part of any "inner clique".

I merely don't like my mailbox being spammed by somebody presenting an 
unknown position over dozens of messages, that try as hard as I might, I 
still cannot understand. It's possible I am stupid and that Rado is so 
far advanced in comparison that anything he says will blow right past me 
- but I don't truly believe this, and I believe the reaction of others 
coincides with mine.

Cheers,
mark

-- 
Mark Mielke <mark at mielke.cc>



From msucka0xff at programmer.net  Mon Mar 31 17:57:11 2008
From: msucka0xff at programmer.net (. .)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 14:57:11 -0800
Subject: [netrek-dev] merit of code
Message-ID: <20080331225714.CC1EF32675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com>

Re: cool things : There has been several calls for bringing novelity to
netrek over time, and efforts have entertained ways to achieve this, so
it's not necessarily out of the ordinary.  It was mostly targeted at
meeting the changes of the current generation, and bringing netrek to
meet that challenge. A netrek web client is one example of this, or
updating the GUI. Clearly there should be the opportunity to at least
present the development work, but my experience was confronted by
obstructionist behavior, which totally flipped me out. What is worse is
that it is reoccuring with the departure of Nick Slager, and Trent's
experiences point to some of the issues.  Social issues like this are not
easily addressed.

No doubt James has done a good job. However, I would like to see an open
door policy, where over time I can come back out of the wood work and
give my latest updates. The "put up or shutup" approach does not
historically represent how netrek developed, and I don't think it useful
today. It seems to imply that because I am stronger than you (or vise
versa), my voice should be heard the loudest, but as you know
intelligence is lost in this model. I think Rado may not be seeing such
an open door policy and thus cause for his concern.

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Mark Mielke"
  To: "Netrek Development Mailing List"
  Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] merit of code
  Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 18:28:04 -0400

  Just like any other open source project - "cool things" are not
  always
  desired. If you went to the Linux kernel list and presented yourself
  the
  same as Rado, demanding for somebody in authority to offer volunteers
  to
  work on your favourite whizbang feature, the reaction would be far
  more
  hostile than we see here.

  There are people that put up, and there are people that talk. As far
  as
  I am concerned, James has been putting up. I find myself continuously
  confused over what Rado is asking for (over months or years?), and
  see
  him being critical of James and existing process. My first reaction
  will
  definitely be to challenge Rado under these circumstances.

-- 
Want an e-mail address like mine?
Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com!

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From msucka0xff at programmer.net  Mon Mar 31 17:57:11 2008
From: msucka0xff at programmer.net (. .)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 14:57:11 -0800
Subject: [netrek-dev] merit of code
Message-ID: <20080331225714.CC1EF32675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com>

Re: cool things : There has been several calls for bringing novelity to
netrek over time, and efforts have entertained ways to achieve this, so
it's not necessarily out of the ordinary.  It was mostly targeted at
meeting the changes of the current generation, and bringing netrek to
meet that challenge. A netrek web client is one example of this, or
updating the GUI. Clearly there should be the opportunity to at least
present the development work, but my experience was confronted by
obstructionist behavior, which totally flipped me out. What is worse is
that it is reoccuring with the departure of Nick Slager, and Trent's
experiences point to some of the issues.  Social issues like this are not
easily addressed.

No doubt James has done a good job. However, I would like to see an open
door policy, where over time I can come back out of the wood work and
give my latest updates. The "put up or shutup" approach does not
historically represent how netrek developed, and I don't think it useful
today. It seems to imply that because I am stronger than you (or vise
versa), my voice should be heard the loudest, but as you know
intelligence is lost in this model. I think Rado may not be seeing such
an open door policy and thus cause for his concern.

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Mark Mielke"
  To: "Netrek Development Mailing List"
  Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] merit of code
  Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 18:28:04 -0400

  Just like any other open source project - "cool things" are not
  always
  desired. If you went to the Linux kernel list and presented yourself
  the
  same as Rado, demanding for somebody in authority to offer volunteers
  to
  work on your favourite whizbang feature, the reaction would be far
  more
  hostile than we see here.

  There are people that put up, and there are people that talk. As far
  as
  I am concerned, James has been putting up. I find myself continuously
  confused over what Rado is asking for (over months or years?), and
  see
  him being critical of James and existing process. My first reaction
  will
  definitely be to challenge Rado under these circumstances.

-- 
Want an e-mail address like mine?
Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com!

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From quozl at us.netrek.org  Mon Mar 31 18:33:05 2008
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 10:33:05 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] merit of code
In-Reply-To: <47F16574.2010109@mark.mielke.cc>
References: <20080331221225.21AB5164288@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com>
	<47F16574.2010109@mark.mielke.cc>
Message-ID: <20080331233305.GC5634@us.netrek.org>

On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 06:28:04PM -0400, Mark Mielke wrote:
> I was listened to, I believe one patch may have made it in, and I have 
> kept some patches separate.

Please submit them again, I'm interested in proposed code changes, and
if they are working for you and you have kept them separate then that
counts for something.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From mark at mark.mielke.cc  Mon Mar 31 21:10:50 2008
From: mark at mark.mielke.cc (Mark Mielke)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 22:10:50 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] merit of code
In-Reply-To: <20080331233305.GC5634@us.netrek.org>
References: <20080331221225.21AB5164288@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com>	<47F16574.2010109@mark.mielke.cc>
	<20080331233305.GC5634@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <47F199AA.40708@mark.mielke.cc>

James Cameron wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 06:28:04PM -0400, Mark Mielke wrote:
>   
>> I was listened to, I believe one patch may have made it in, and I have 
>> kept some patches separate.
>>     
>
> Please submit them again, I'm interested in proposed code changes, and
> if they are working for you and you have kept them separate then that
> counts for something

Netrek is only of historical interest to me these days - I haven't 
played in over a year. :-)

The patches were things like:

   1. Forward and reverse orbits - depending on entry trajectory
      (affects game play)
   2. Smooth bouncing off the walls - errors in the wall bounce logic
      made it jitter unpredictably.
   3. Proper calculation of wall wrap - again, errors in the wall logic
      under chaos rules
   4. Phaser lock across the wall, plasma seeking across the wall
   5. Enemies across the wall show up as "near", meaning better cloaker
      approximation (more frequent updates), and proper updates to "see"
      torpedoes, phasers, etc. across the wall in suitably modified clients.

I think I've seen some patches get in completely independent from my 
efforts, so other people had similar ideas.

If there is interest, I can try to resurrect those patches.

The last big thing I was going to work on around 6 or 7 years ago was a 
co-ordinated robot team that combines information across clients acting 
as if each ship is an arm of the same command unit, alternatively 
exchanging damage, protecting cloakers, co-ordinated oggs, co-ordinated 
alternating det-others, etc. It was an intriguing idea - but after 
spending a few hours on it off and on for 2 months, it fell by the 
wayside. :-)

Cheers,
mark

-- 
Mark Mielke <mark at mielke.cc>

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From jeffrey.w.watts at gmail.com  Mon Mar 31 21:43:40 2008
From: jeffrey.w.watts at gmail.com (Jeffrey Watts)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:43:40 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] merit of code
In-Reply-To: <20080331225714.CC1EF32675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com>
References: <20080331225714.CC1EF32675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com>
Message-ID: <65631e800803311943q47111f51s6df83b8a89124500@mail.gmail.com>

Well, we're kind of talking about two things here.  The two voices
that have spoken up are both those of people who were offering code.
Rado is not, he's proposing organization and that "others" do
"things".

There's a big difference.  I do not doubt that you found resistance to
your changes - Netrek (especially Bronco) has always been resistant to
change.  Some argue that's a weakness, some a strength.  However I
personally think it's wrong to dismiss ideas out of hand.

However, we're really not talking about the kind of situation you went
through.  We're talking about someone with a pathological need to get
the last word and argue.

Here's a link to a classic site.  I think he's "Tireless Rebutter":
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/tirelessrebutter.htm

Jeffrey.

On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 5:57 PM, . . <msucka0xff at programmer.net> wrote:
>
> No doubt James has done a good job. However, I would like to see an open
> door policy, where over time I can come back out of the wood work and give
> my latest updates. The "put up or shutup" approach does not historically
> represent how netrek developed, and I don't think it useful today. It seems
> to imply that because I am stronger than you (or vise versa), my voice
> should be heard the loudest, but as you know intelligence is lost in this
> model.   I think Rado may not be seeing such an open door policy and thus
> cause for his concern.

-- 

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy
from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a
precedent that will reach to himself." -- Thomas Paine


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Mon Mar 31 21:56:05 2008
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 13:56:05 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] merit of code
In-Reply-To: <47F199AA.40708@mark.mielke.cc>
References: <20080331221225.21AB5164288@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com>
	<47F16574.2010109@mark.mielke.cc>
	<20080331233305.GC5634@us.netrek.org>
	<47F199AA.40708@mark.mielke.cc>
Message-ID: <20080401025605.GI5634@us.netrek.org>

On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:10:50PM -0400, Mark Mielke wrote:
>  1. Forward and reverse orbits - depending on entry trajectory (affects game
>     play)
>  2. Smooth bouncing off the walls - errors in the wall bounce logic made it
>     jitter unpredictably.
>  3. Proper calculation of wall wrap - again, errors in the wall logic under
>     chaos rules
>  4. Phaser lock across the wall, plasma seeking across the wall
>  5. Enemies across the wall show up as "near", meaning better cloaker
>     approximation (more frequent updates), and proper updates to "see"
>     torpedoes, phasers, etc. across the wall in suitably modified clients.

Each of those I am willing to try to merge, if only as an #ifdef or
sysdef enabled feature.

I had an idea for wrap perception simplification which offsets all
coordinates given to a player so that they remain locked in the centre
of the galactic.  As they move the offset changes, and so everything
moves around them.  It would have a bad effect on the data stream
though, since planets would need to be moved.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From mark at mark.mielke.cc  Mon Mar 31 22:12:25 2008
From: mark at mark.mielke.cc (Mark Mielke)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 23:12:25 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] merit of code
In-Reply-To: <20080401025605.GI5634@us.netrek.org>
References: <20080331221225.21AB5164288@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com>	<47F16574.2010109@mark.mielke.cc>	<20080331233305.GC5634@us.netrek.org>	<47F199AA.40708@mark.mielke.cc>
	<20080401025605.GI5634@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <47F1A819.9090907@mark.mielke.cc>

James Cameron wrote:
> I had an idea for wrap perception simplification which offsets all
> coordinates given to a player so that they remain locked in the centre
> of the galactic.  As they move the offset changes, and so everything
> moves around them.  It would have a bad effect on the data stream
> though, since planets would need to be moved

That's effectively the jist of the patch, although there is no need for 
it to be "the center". Every DX or DY is wrapped with a macro that 
treats it as DX - GWIDTH if DX > GWIDTH / 2, and DX + GWIDTH if DX < - 
GWIDTH / 2. Never for absolute position of objects, but always for 
calculations that calculate the distance of objects, or that track other 
objects. This requires client support to work best, otherwise you got 
"interesting" effects, like a phaser that crosses the galaxy the long 
way for a cross-the-wall phaser... :-)

Cheers,
mark

-- 
Mark Mielke <mark at mielke.cc>



From netrek at gmail.com  Mon Mar 31 23:31:20 2008
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 00:31:20 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] merit of code
In-Reply-To: <20080401025605.GI5634@us.netrek.org>
References: <20080331221225.21AB5164288@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com>
	<47F16574.2010109@mark.mielke.cc>
	<20080331233305.GC5634@us.netrek.org> <47F199AA.40708@mark.mielke.cc>
	<20080401025605.GI5634@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0803312131s6e56cb35na9adba2c576ab09@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:56 PM, James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote:
>
>  I had an idea for wrap perception simplification which offsets all
>  coordinates given to a player so that they remain locked in the centre
>  of the galactic.  As they move the offset changes, and so everything
>  moves around them.  It would have a bad effect on the data stream
>  though, since planets would need to be moved.

So in the conventional method the planets are fixed and the player
moves through space. In your proposed method the player is static and
space (the planets) moves relative to the player yes? Interesting, I
am guessing the latter method would result in a larger sized update
being required than the former? Do any popular games use your method?

Zach


From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Tue Mar  4 16:28:50 2008
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 22:28:50 -0000
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <mailman.2.1207686630.31650.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>

players) and from imagination I can see cases where voice can add
even to the best players: information that does not need details.
- SB needs help: every player should know where the bases are, so a
simply cry should do.
- ogg sync.
- carry reports.

and maybe some others more. Using voice rather than keys for those
let's you forget about the keys needed to invoke them and focus on
the more vital ones.

Additionally you can pass 2 pieces of information at the same time.
And the space saved for the above mentioned voiced messages is free
and better used for the detailed info (less "flooding" scrolling out
of sight of vital info).

Don't think of voice as better, but orthogonally "more".

--=20
=A9 Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.