From johnny at solbu.net Tue Feb 28 15:06:10 2012 From: johnny at solbu.net (Johnny Solbu) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 22:06:10 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-client-cow and vanilla-server - license question. Message-ID: <201202282206.19024.johnny@solbu.net> Hi. I am in the process of packaging the COW client to Mageia, and possibly also Mandriva, and putting it in the non-free repository because of the current license. And I have a question about the license. The last day I have looked around for the license of the program, which I have found (copyright.h and copyright2.h). During my search I found this list, when in a message from may 2009 you got the permission to relicense "RES-RSA" under the BSD license. And I am wondering, is there any attempt to also relicence the client, and possibly the vanilla server under a Free Software license, like the BSD? The cow client and the vanila server are currently Non-free programs as it doesn't permitt commerical use, which the BSD and GPL licenses allow. Or is it already under the BSD-licence and someone have forgotten to update/add a licence to the package stateing that it is relicenced? -- Johnny A. Solbu web site, http://www.solbu.net PGP key ID: 0xFA687324 ******************************** Kom Arbeidslyst og treng deg p?, her skal du motstand finne. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From netrek at gmail.com Tue Feb 28 15:13:16 2012 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zachary Uram) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 16:13:16 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-client-cow and vanilla-server - license question. In-Reply-To: <201202282206.19024.johnny@solbu.net> References: <201202282206.19024.johnny@solbu.net> Message-ID: Hi Johnny, AFAIK, the netrek code is under a very liberal license. It is akin to BSD so that shouldn't be a problem. Commercial use is fine as long as you follow the license terms so it shouldn't have to go under non-free. The cow client is listed in the Ubuntu repository already in fact: http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/multiverse/n/netrek-client-cow/ BTW, shouldn't COW be in the new releases? On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 4:06 PM, Johnny Solbu wrote: > Hi. > I am in the process of packaging the COW client to Mageia, and possibly also Mandriva, and putting it in the non-free repository because of the current license. And I have a question about the license. > > The last day I have looked around for the license of the program, which I have found (copyright.h and copyright2.h). > During my search I found this list, when in a message from may 2009 you got the permission to relicense "RES-RSA" under the BSD license. > And I am wondering, is there any attempt to also relicence the client, and possibly the vanilla server under a Free Software license, like the BSD? > > The cow client and the vanila server are currently Non-free programs as it doesn't permitt commerical use, which the BSD and GPL licenses allow. > Or is it already under the BSD-licence and someone have forgotten to update/add a licence to the package stateing that it is relicenced? > > -- > Johnny A. Solbu > web site, ? http://www.solbu.net > PGP key ID: 0xFA687324 > ******************************** > Kom Arbeidslyst og treng deg p?, > her skal du motstand finne. > > _______________________________________________ > netrek-dev mailing list > netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev > -- Zach http://www.fidei.org From johnny at solbu.net Tue Feb 28 15:36:43 2012 From: johnny at solbu.net (Johnny Solbu) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 22:36:43 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-client-cow and vanilla-server - license question. In-Reply-To: References: <201202282206.19024.johnny@solbu.net> Message-ID: <201202282236.46801.johnny@solbu.net> On Tuesday 28 February 2012 22:13, Zachary Uram wrote: > Commercial use is fine as long as you follow the license terms > so it shouldn't have to go under non-free. And the license (copyright.h) explicitly says it can't be used commercially. :-)= The license is a BSD-like license, with one exception, it has a "without fee" clause, which is a no commercial clause. That single clause makes it a Non-free program, and force us to have it in the non-free section. So to rephrase my question: Is there any plans to attempt to remove the "and without fee", thus making the client and server Free Software? If you did, I believe it would also end up in Debian and gNewSense. -- Johnny A. Solbu web site, http://www.solbu.net PGP key ID: 0xFA687324 ******************************** Kom Arbeidslyst og treng deg p?, her skal du motstand finne. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From quozl at us.netrek.org Tue Feb 28 15:47:42 2012 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 08:47:42 +1100 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-client-cow and vanilla-server - license question. In-Reply-To: <201202282206.19024.johnny@solbu.net> References: <201202282206.19024.johnny@solbu.net> Message-ID: <20120228214742.GB3652@us.netrek.org> G'day Johnny, It is nice to hear this question. netrek-client-cow does not include RES-RSA. netrek-server does not include RES-RSA. You can see an independent review of the license of netrek-client-cow on the Debian package: http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/n/netrek-client-cow/netrek-client-cow_3.3.0-3/netrek-client-cow.copyright I don't think you need to package the server. There are servers on the internet already, and the source compiles fine. The license can be found in include/copyright.h and include/copyright2.h with another mention in docs/README. Latest version of netrek-client-cow is 3.3.1 released 18th October 2011. Latest version of netrek-server-vanilla is 2.18.0 released 18th June 2011, but all servers use the source in darcs. On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 10:06:10PM +0100, Johnny Solbu wrote: > Hi. > I am in the process of packaging the COW client to Mageia, and possibly also Mandriva, and putting it in the non-free repository because of the current license. And I have a question about the license. > > The last day I have looked around for the license of the program, which I have found (copyright.h and copyright2.h). > During my search I found this list, when in a message from may 2009 you got the permission to relicense "RES-RSA" under the BSD license. > And I am wondering, is there any attempt to also relicence the client, and possibly the vanilla server under a Free Software license, like the BSD? > > The cow client and the vanila server are currently Non-free programs as it doesn't permitt commerical use, which the BSD and GPL licenses allow. > Or is it already under the BSD-licence and someone have forgotten to update/add a licence to the package stateing that it is relicenced? > > -- > Johnny A. Solbu > web site, http://www.solbu.net > PGP key ID: 0xFA687324 > ******************************** > Kom Arbeidslyst og treng deg p?, > her skal du motstand finne. > _______________________________________________ > netrek-dev mailing list > netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev -- James Cameron http://quozl.linux.org.au/ From quozl at us.netrek.org Tue Feb 28 16:00:58 2012 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 09:00:58 +1100 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-client-cow and vanilla-server - license question. In-Reply-To: <201202282236.46801.johnny@solbu.net> References: <201202282206.19024.johnny@solbu.net> <201202282236.46801.johnny@solbu.net> Message-ID: <20120228220057.GC3652@us.netrek.org> On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 10:36:43PM +0100, Johnny Solbu wrote: > On Tuesday 28 February 2012 22:13, Zachary Uram wrote: > > Commercial use is fine as long as you follow the license terms > > so it shouldn't have to go under non-free. > > And the license (copyright.h) explicitly says it can't be used > commercially. :-)= No, the license gives permissions. It doesn't say what can't be done. copyright.h of both the netrek-server-vanilla and netrek-client-cow says, in part ... "Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its documentation for any purpose and without fee is hereby granted, provided that the above copyright notice appear in all copies and that both that copyright notice and this permission notice appear in supporting documentation." > The license is a BSD-like license, with one exception, it has a > "without fee" clause, which is a no commercial clause. I agree it has a "without fee" wording. > That single clause makes it a Non-free program, and force us to have > it in the non-free section. If that is your policy, then that is your problem. ;-) > So to rephrase my question: > Is there any plans to attempt to remove the "and without fee", thus > making the client and server Free Software? > If you did, I believe it would also end up in Debian and gNewSense. There are no plans to attempt to remove the "and without fee", because not all of the original authors are contactable. Please also package gytha, a Netrek client which is GPL. -- James Cameron http://quozl.linux.org.au/ From netrek at gmail.com Tue Feb 28 16:04:51 2012 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zachary Uram) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 17:04:51 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-client-cow and vanilla-server - license question. In-Reply-To: <20120228220057.GC3652@us.netrek.org> References: <201202282206.19024.johnny@solbu.net> <201202282236.46801.johnny@solbu.net> <20120228220057.GC3652@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 5:00 PM, James Cameron wrote: > > Please also package gytha, a Netrek client which is GPL. http://quozl.us.netrek.org/gytha/ -- Zach http://www.fidei.org From johnny at solbu.net Tue Feb 28 16:36:03 2012 From: johnny at solbu.net (Johnny Solbu) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 23:36:03 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-client-cow and vanilla-server - license question. In-Reply-To: <20120228220057.GC3652@us.netrek.org> References: <201202282206.19024.johnny@solbu.net> <201202282236.46801.johnny@solbu.net> <20120228220057.GC3652@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <201202282336.06932.johnny@solbu.net> On Tuesday 28 February 2012 23:00, James Cameron wrote: > Please also package gytha, a Netrek client which is GPL. Nice. It looks interesting. I think I'll package that one too. Thanks for the tip. :-)= -- Johnny A. Solbu web site, http://www.solbu.net PGP key ID: 0xFA687324 ******************************** Kom Arbeidslyst og treng deg p?, her skal du motstand finne. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From apsillers at gmail.com Tue Feb 28 17:49:54 2012 From: apsillers at gmail.com (Andrew Sillers) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 18:49:54 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] HTML5 Netrek client Message-ID: Hello Netrek devs, I've been playing around with some JavaScript libraries for HTML5 canvas drawing, and I feel fairly confident that it would be possible to make browser-based a Netrek client. The browser could use WebSockets to communicate with an intermediary WebSocket-based Netrek server. [[Browser client]] <---WebSocket connection---> [[WebSocket server]] <----real TCP connection----> [[Regular Netrek server]] The intermediate WebSocket server would be quite thin; it just needs to catch WebSocket messages from the client and forward them to the actual Netrek server. (I believe this roughly is the model that freeciv.net uses for their browser-based Freeciv client.) The WebSocket server and the actual server could be run on the same host or different hosts, which means anyone who can set up a WebSocket server could connect their browser client to a real Netrek server. The main benefits to a browser-based Netrek client are: 1. It would be cross-platform and not require any downloads/installations, which would greatly the reduce the barrier to entry for new players. (Some might consider this a disadvantage, however, allowing a potential flood of clueless players. This may be a non issue; see RSA verification below.) 2. Once a desktop version is completed, it should be fairly easy to modify the UI to create a mobile-friendly version. 3. Support for Web-only devices: Chomebooks and (someday) Boot2Gecko devices from Mozilla. My main concerns are: 1. WebSockets only use TCP, not UDP. (WebSockets are exactly as efficient as TCP, minus a negligible one-time set-up cost per connection.) My understanding is that all modern Netrek implementations prefer UDP but provide legacy support for TCP. Would writing a client that could only use TCP be a waste of time? How playable is Netrek over TCP only? 2. RSA verification of a browser-based client would be impossible. The actual client -- as far as the server is concerned -- is the intermediary WebSocket server, which has no way of verifying what the user's broser is running. Furthermore, running cyptographic verification (or any kind of self-verification, really) in Javascript is doomed from the start, since a player could easily modify the client's code (and/or the code of the verification process) at any time using Greasemonkey or the browser's debug console. Would this mean that major servers would never be able to accept Web clients? Web-friendly servers could always be set up, so that regular players using desktop clients are not affected. So, in conclusion: any thoughts (either policy-related or technical) about writing a Web client? --Andrew -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From collin at collinp.com Tue Feb 28 18:43:30 2012 From: collin at collinp.com (Collin Pruitt) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 19:43:30 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] HTML5 Netrek client In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F4D74B2.3030900@collinp.com> On 2/28/2012 6:49 PM, Andrew Sillers wrote: > Hello Netrek devs, > > I've been playing around with some JavaScript libraries for HTML5 > canvas drawing, and I feel fairly confident that it would be possible > to make browser-based a Netrek client. The browser could use > WebSockets to communicate with an intermediary WebSocket-based Netrek > server. > > [[Browser client]] <---WebSocket connection---> [[WebSocket server]] > <----real TCP connection----> [[Regular Netrek server]] > > The intermediate WebSocket server would be quite thin; it just needs > to catch WebSocket messages from the client and forward them to the > actual Netrek server. (I believe this roughly is the model that > freeciv.net uses for their browser-based Freeciv > client.) The WebSocket server and the actual server could be run on > the same host or different hosts, which means anyone who can set up a > WebSocket server could connect their browser client to a real Netrek > server. The instant the WebSocket server dies, every person playing from the browser platform is disconnected. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From quozl at us.netrek.org Tue Feb 28 19:18:06 2012 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 12:18:06 +1100 Subject: [netrek-dev] HTML5 Netrek client In-Reply-To: <4F4D74B2.3030900@collinp.com> References: <4F4D74B2.3030900@collinp.com> Message-ID: <20120229011806.GE3652@us.netrek.org> G'day Andrew, You need not be unduly concerned about the difference between UDP and TCP, since the extra hop of the WebSocket server will more than cover the difference. Players will be at a slight disadvantage, but now that everybody has fibre to the home, it won't be a problem. New players won't notice. Old players won't want to change. It's a non-issue. Don't let it stop you. You also need not be worried about RSA verification. No server requires it. The server source does not include RSA support. Several clients already exist without RSA support. So go for it. Looking forward to your first implementation. You should post back here once you have something for people to test. -- James Cameron http://quozl.linux.org.au/ From apsillers at gmail.com Tue Feb 28 19:31:23 2012 From: apsillers at gmail.com (Andrew Sillers) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 20:31:23 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] HTML5 Netrek client In-Reply-To: <20120229011806.GE3652@us.netrek.org> References: <4F4D74B2.3030900@collinp.com> <20120229011806.GE3652@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: Collin: Absolutely, keeping the WebSocket server running would be just about as important as keeping the actual Netrek server running. James: Thanks for the TCP and RSA clarifications. Is there any documentation on the Netrek protocol? If not, I'll just read through the source for the Linux COW client and use Wireshark to see it for myself. Actually, is there an easy way to turn off UDP in COW? (Or in any other major client; I'm flexible.) Since I won't be using UDP, I want monitor the net traffic of TCP-only behavior. Thanks, Andrew On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 8:18 PM, James Cameron wrote: > G'day Andrew, > > You need not be unduly concerned about the difference between UDP and > TCP, since the extra hop of the WebSocket server will more than cover > the difference. Players will be at a slight disadvantage, but now that > everybody has fibre to the home, it won't be a problem. New players > won't notice. Old players won't want to change. It's a non-issue. > Don't let it stop you. > > You also need not be worried about RSA verification. No server requires > it. The server source does not include RSA support. Several clients > already exist without RSA support. > > So go for it. Looking forward to your first implementation. You should > post back here once you have something for people to test. > > -- > James Cameron > http://quozl.linux.org.au/ > _______________________________________________ > netrek-dev mailing list > netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From quozl at us.netrek.org Tue Feb 28 19:59:13 2012 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 12:59:13 +1100 Subject: [netrek-dev] HTML5 Netrek client In-Reply-To: References: <4F4D74B2.3030900@collinp.com> <20120229011806.GE3652@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20120229015913.GF3652@us.netrek.org> On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 08:31:23PM -0500, Andrew Sillers wrote: > James: Thanks for the TCP and RSA clarifications. Is there any > documentation on the Netrek protocol? Yes, in the file include/packets.h in the server source. http://james.tooraweenah.com/cgi-bin/darcsweb.cgi?r=netrek-server;a=headblob;f=/Vanilla/include/packets.h > If not, I'll just read through the source for the Linux COW client and > use Wireshark to see it for myself. Not a good way. Wireshark won't help much at all. Build on my work. After you've read packets.h, check the Python packet processing code in the Gytha client. There is very little to it. client.py implements the TCP (and UDP) interface. http://james.tooraweenah.com/cgi-bin/darcsweb.cgi?r=gytha;a=headblob;f=/gytha/client.py client.py calls back into __init__.py for each packet type. There's a function for each packet type. These packets are ordered in the source in roughly the order that they appear on the wire, as it was a cyclic development method that was used. http://james.tooraweenah.com/cgi-bin/darcsweb.cgi?r=gytha;a=headblob;f=/gytha/__init__.py#l2670 > Actually, is there an easy way to turn off UDP in COW? (Or in any > other major client; I'm flexible.) Gytha has --tcp-only option on command line. netrek-client-cow has something like it, but since I don't recommend you learn from it, I'll make it harder for you to find it. ;-} -- James Cameron http://quozl.linux.org.au/ From quozl at us.netrek.org Tue Feb 28 20:00:21 2012 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 13:00:21 +1100 Subject: [netrek-dev] HTML5 Netrek client In-Reply-To: <20120229015913.GF3652@us.netrek.org> References: <4F4D74B2.3030900@collinp.com> <20120229011806.GE3652@us.netrek.org> <20120229015913.GF3652@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20120229020021.GG3652@us.netrek.org> On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 12:59:13PM +1100, James Cameron wrote: > Gytha has --tcp-only option on command line. Gytha also has packet dumping facilities, see --help. -- James Cameron http://quozl.linux.org.au/ From johnny at solbu.net Wed Feb 29 19:17:37 2012 From: johnny at solbu.net (Johnny Solbu) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 02:17:37 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-client-cow - Mandriva RPM release Message-ID: <201203010217.42200.johnny@solbu.net> For those interested, I have just packaged netrek-client-cow which will be included in the next Mandriva 2012 release. -- Johnny A. Solbu web site, http://www.solbu.net PGP key ID: 0xFA687324 ******************************** Kom Arbeidslyst og treng deg p?, her skal du motstand finne. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From netrek at gmail.com Wed Feb 29 19:29:08 2012 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zachary Uram) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 20:29:08 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-client-cow - Mandriva RPM release In-Reply-To: <201203010217.42200.johnny@solbu.net> References: <201203010217.42200.johnny@solbu.net> Message-ID: Nice work Johnny! On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 8:17 PM, Johnny Solbu wrote: > For those interested, I have just packaged netrek-client-cow which will be included in the next Mandriva 2012 > release. -- Zach http://www.fidei.org From quozl at us.netrek.org Wed Feb 29 19:36:41 2012 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 12:36:41 +1100 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-client-cow - Mandriva RPM release In-Reply-To: <201203010217.42200.johnny@solbu.net> References: <201203010217.42200.johnny@solbu.net> Message-ID: <20120301013641.GE6222@us.netrek.org> On Thu, Mar 01, 2012 at 02:17:37AM +0100, Johnny Solbu wrote: > For those interested, I have just packaged netrek-client-cow which > will be included in the next Mandriva 2012 release. Thanks. How does a naive Mandriva 2012 user install the package? Is it the same as installing a package on Ubuntu or Fedora? -- James Cameron http://quozl.linux.org.au/ From johnny at solbu.net Wed Feb 29 19:44:51 2012 From: johnny at solbu.net (Johnny Solbu) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 02:44:51 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-client-cow - Mandriva RPM release In-Reply-To: <20120301013641.GE6222@us.netrek.org> References: <201203010217.42200.johnny@solbu.net> <20120301013641.GE6222@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <201203010244.54419.johnny@solbu.net> On Thursday 01 March 2012 02:36, James Cameron wrote: > How does a naive Mandriva 2012 user install the package If one use the terminal: "urpmi netrek-client-cow" Or one could search for "netrek" in the graphical package manager, and it will show up. They might have to add a repository in order to find it, as not all packages fit on a 4.4GB dvd. ;-)= The easy way to do that is to use the "Easy Urpmi" website and add one. http://easyurpmi.zarb.org/ - http://mandrivausers.org/easyurpmi/ -- Johnny A. Solbu web site, http://www.solbu.net PGP key ID: 0xFA687324 ******************************** Kom Arbeidslyst og treng deg p?, her skal du motstand finne. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From netrek at gmail.com Wed Feb 29 19:46:37 2012 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zachary Uram) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 20:46:37 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] HTML5 Netrek client In-Reply-To: References: <4F4D74B2.3030900@collinp.com> <20120229011806.GE3652@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: That's great Andrew. Hopefully over time HTML 5 will replace Flash. Looking forward to your work! -- Zach http://www.fidei.org From netrek at gmail.com Wed Feb 29 19:49:06 2012 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zachary Uram) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 20:49:06 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-client-cow - Mandriva RPM release In-Reply-To: <201203010244.54419.johnny@solbu.net> References: <201203010217.42200.johnny@solbu.net> <20120301013641.GE6222@us.netrek.org> <201203010244.54419.johnny@solbu.net> Message-ID: Heh, my very first Linux was Mandrake back in 1999. Wasn't very happy with it so I moved to Debian. Does Mandriva have a Live disc I can boot off of to try it? On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 8:44 PM, Johnny Solbu wrote: > > If one use the terminal: "urpmi netrek-client-cow" > Or one could search for "netrek" in the graphical package manager, and it will show up. > > They might have to add a repository in order to find it, as not all packages fit on a 4.4GB dvd. ;-)= > The easy way to do that is to use the "Easy Urpmi" website and add one. > http://easyurpmi.zarb.org/ ?- http://mandrivausers.org/easyurpmi/ -- Zach http://www.fidei.org From johnny at solbu.net Wed Feb 29 20:41:58 2012 From: johnny at solbu.net (Johnny Solbu) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 03:41:58 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-client-cow - Mandriva RPM release In-Reply-To: References: <201203010217.42200.johnny@solbu.net> <201203010244.54419.johnny@solbu.net> Message-ID: <201203010342.01726.johnny@solbu.net> On Thursday 01 March 2012 02:49, Zachary Uram wrote: > Heh, my very first Linux was Mandrake back in 1999. My first was SuSE 5.2 which came on a CD in a norwegian computer magazine in 1998. I remember the title and cover as if it was last week: "A real 32 bits, gratis operating system" (Translated) I har learned that Windows 9x wasn't a real 32 bit system. It was a mix of 16 and 32 bits. So the ability to try a real 32 bist system atractec me. and th fact that it was free of charge, was what made me try it. > Wasn't very happy with it so I moved to Debian. I went the other way around. :-)= I had a Redhat 7.1 gateway, and was looking for something to test on my other computer. So I tried Debian 3.0-rc1, as Debian was supposed to be the best one. It was the worst computer experience I've had to this date. The Debian installer back then was almost nothing but crap. t naged on and on about what hardware I had. On every posible hardware it found it asked me to manually enter/select the chipset, how much ram the system had, how much ram the graphics card had, and which chipset it was. And, I had no clue as to any of this, except what CPU and how much memory it had. I was, and still am of the firm belief that this is something the installer should figure out by itself. So I halted the installer before it even started installing anything. So I tried Mandrake 9.0, which was included in a british computer magazine in 2003, I think. And I'm still using Mandriva. I am one of the few who also have a complete local mirror of the Mandriva releases I use. :-)= > Does Mandriva have a Live disc I can boot off of to try it? I think so, however I no longer recommend it, as the new installer that came with Mandriva 2011 does not give you the abillity to choose what pakcages to install from the DVD. it install Everything, including a lot of proprietary crap that I refuse to have anything to do with. Proprietary software can't be trusted. especially proprietary drivers. We can't independently verify that it doesn't spy on us. I don't think that proprietary driver vendors do that, but we can't verify it. This also mean that one can nolonger install Mandriva as a server. The reason i still build packages for Mandriva thou, is that I have been mentored as a packager for the last year and a half or so. and qualified this january. :-)= I also is stil there in order to influence the direction, like building Free Software packages over proprietary whenever possible. And I hope that the installer will change for 2012. If it does not, and still use the same method of installation as in 2011, I'm leaving Mandriva. Also Mandriva is on the verge of bankruptcy. http://blog.mandriva.com/en/ I recommend Mageia, which is a fork of Mandriva 2010.2, and I will be moving to that when it's time to upgrade my 2010.2 systems in the future. netrek-client-cow should end up in Mageia sometime tomorrow. -- Johnny A. Solbu web site, http://www.solbu.net PGP key ID: 0xFA687324 ******************************** Kom Arbeidslyst og treng deg p?, her skal du motstand finne. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: